Is D&D all about murder and pillaging?

[Truth Seeker]

Yes...I have been hearing too, which is understandable, giving what they have to face.

The video game industry. I don't have to elaborate on that further..if you get the meaning.

In a nutshell, we (or the majority or minority gaming population) who started up with the industry when it first came around. Are not there as before...numbers are reducing, taste are changing and other mediums fight for our attention. So yeah...pick the one thing that most young people (these days) can recognize with ease.

'The fighting & pillaging'. Seen in video games.

Just a prudent business decision...

Well, WOTC, Goodman Games, Paizo and various other module producers have certainly capitalized on the idea that you are going to be "fighting and pillaging" most of the time. All you have to do is look at modules. They haven't particularly changed in formula all that much. Get the quest, go out, kill the stuff that stands in the way of your quest, find the purpose of the quest, come home - describes the basic plot of most modules.

So, I think that spending a large amount of time, even a majority of time, killing and pillaging, does appeal to a rather large percentage of gamers.

If it didn't, do you really think D&D would still be king? If most people strongly disliked spending time in combat, or looting treasure, do you think D&D would have retained its position? After all, there are lots of games out there where "Kill stuff and take its treasure" is not the primary or even secondary goal.

To be completely honest, I fall somewhere in the middle. I can go either way. High hack or just 100% talky - it's all good AFAIC.

 

[Hussar]

Now there is something I do disagree with actually. That it's something that's become more prevalent now than before. Dungeon crawls have been with us from the very, very beginning. Heck, my Basic D&D book presumes that the ONLY place for adventure is the dungeon.

Video games use the kill/loot model because it's a very easy model. It's easy to design for, easy for players to recognize and easy to make fun. I don't think it's a case of video games informing RPG's, but rather a case that both mediums recognize a similar, successful approach.

I'm not of the opinion that we started in this sort of role play nirvana and have devolved to nothing but hack N slash. To me, it's probably stayed pretty much the same, with at least a lot more nods to those who don't like combat coming out in later games.

 

[Chrono22]

For you. And, really, for me too. But, I've played with more than a few people for whom D&D is just a computer game with slower pace and less time spent in travel. The plethora of dungeon crawls out there speaks volumes to how much people like combat in D&D.

For some, it's the social aspect - the beer and pretzels as you get to whack your way through some goblins. And, I think there are a very, very large number of casual gamers out there who, unlike probably you or me, don't spend a whole lot of time on gaming, and for whom gaming is on par with computer gaming or playing Texas Hold 'Em or whatever. It's a fun way to spend three or four hours and that's about as much effort or energy they put into it.

Not that I want to invoke a logical fallacy, but there are tabletop RPG players and there are tabletop RPG players. While it is more profitable to appeal to the majority of gamers (who are casual players), D&D itself is a niche product. In the long term, watering down the brand to appeal to a broader and broader consumer base will generate profit, but by the same token it will also make MMOs and CGs competition. If D&D ever does become "all about murder and pillage" I doubt that it will be able to retain brand recognition (and therefore profitability) in the face of products that are functionally superior, faster, and less expensive.
What makes D&D unique, is what is going to keep D&D's image from vanishing in a sea of monotony.

 

[Hussar]

If D&D ever does become "all about murder and pillage"

That's my point. What do you mean "if"? Since when has D&D NOT been all about murder and pillage? Every edition directly rewards either one or the other or both. None of the editions particularly rewards me for speaking in funny voices, acting in character or even writing a character background.

Heck, look at the difference between the character generation system in something like Spirit of the Century and compare it to any edition of D&D. There's a pretty good reason why Charisma is on the bottom of the list for stats in every edition.

Or, look back in the old Strategic Review issues. You have anecdotes where campaigns consisted of HUNDREDS of characters. Something like three or four characters per session.

Let's be honest here, the format you find in the old Keep on the Borderlands is followed in a whole bunch of modules and adventure design. Talky bit, travely bit, fight fight fight, get reward, go home. And, that describes a whole bunch of different things in the hobby. I mean, isn't that the basic plot outline of every Star Trek TOS show? It certainly describes loads of genre fiction.

And there's a reason for that. It's easy to identify with. It doesn't require a great deal from the participants either. It's very quickly gratifying as well. There's a reason that something like Transformers 2 makes a bajillion dollars. And it's not because today's people are any more stupid or whatever than yesterday's. I remember way back when when Stallone's Cliffhanger was a top grossing movie. Yuck.

But, brain candy works. People honestly don't want to work for their entertainment. They just want to have fun for a couple of hours.

It's only the weird ones like me and you who self flagellate for far too many hours a week on the hobby.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

If D&D is about killing and pillaging, doesn't that mean that WoW, everquest and diablo are D&D with a more detailed interface, faster mechanics, and lower requirements?
What sets D&D apart from MMOs/CGs is not its combat or an emphasis on killing monsters. It's the human element- it's imagination, cooperative story building, and being able to realize and achieve success on your own terms.

I disagree. Our games of D&D resemble WoW, Everquest, Diablo or what-have-you in a tremendous amount of ways. However, the ability to click a button to shoot the same fireball you fired before isn't a "more detailed interface".

In D&D, we instead get the chance to carefully plan our attacks based on our exact position on the battle map, we get to know our percent chance of hitting, and we get to modify our attack or damage rolls with special abilities. The enemies can change their plan of attack based on what strategies we are using. Some of them might decide to run away or change sides or do any number of other things.

Video games certainly have FASTER mechanics. But that's not why I play the game, it's for more detailed mechanics. And it's for cooperative play which happens rarely or ever in a video games(even MMOs, strangely enough).

I also like the role playing portions of the game to be just as interactive as the combat portions. I like being able to ask questions that aren't on a static list of responses. I like knowing that there might be 3 or 4 solutions to a problem instead of the 1 programmed into the game.

However, that doesn't make the game any less about killing and pillaging. In our Tuesday Night Game, we haven't really talked to an NPC at all for longer than 10 minutes of game time for about 3 or 4 sessions now. It's pretty much been "You walk down the path...and see enemies...roll for initiative". And we love it.

 

[Jack7]

I'm with those who say the game is what you make of it.

Depends on how you play it, how you run it, and what the stories are about. But "all about" seems a pretty high hurdle to have to clear.

 

[The Shaman]

People honestly don't want to work for their entertainment. They just want to have fun for a couple of hours.

That's a terribly broad and highly inaccurate generalization, in my experience.

People engage in many different hobbies, sports, and other activities which require a great deal of concentration and commitment. Try telling a model train diorama builder or a rock climber they "don't want to work for their entertainment." They'll laugh themselves silly.

 

[Aus_Snow]

That's a terribly broad and highly inaccurate generalization, in my experience.

People engage in many different hobbies, sports, and other activities which require a great deal of concentration and commitment. Try telling a model train diorama builder or a rock climber they "don't want to work for their entertainment." They'll laugh themselves silly.

Indeed. In fact, this could be the single most powerful reason why people in general don't take up TTRPGs. Too much work!

There are so many other pastimes for which you need only switch off your brain and relax, and they are bound to remain vastly more popular, for the foreseeable future.

 

[Hussar]

That's a terribly broad and highly inaccurate generalization, in my experience.

People engage in many different hobbies, sports, and other activities which require a great deal of concentration and commitment. Try telling a model train diorama builder

What? Both of them? ((That was meant as a joke))

or a rock climber they "don't want to work for their entertainment." They'll laugh themselves silly.

Again, not exactly a mainstream hobby is it? I'd be surprised actually if the number of either model train diorama builders or rock climbers is a whole lot more than the estimated number of D&D gamers.

Indeed. In fact, this could be the single most powerful reason why people in general don't take up TTRPGs. Too much work!

There are so many other pastimes for which you need only switch off your brain and relax, and they are bound to remain vastly more popular, for the foreseeable future.

Sorry, Aus Snow, but, are you agreeing with me or Shaman? I think you're saying the same thing as me - that a very large segment of people don't want to put in huge amounts of work into their hobbies, but would rather "switch off their brains and relax".

Sure, there are hobbies out there that require lots of time and effort. Totally agree. But, how many are as popular as WOW? ((Although that one is a huge time sink)) or Fantasy Football?

 

[billd91]

Again, not exactly a mainstream hobby is it? I'd be surprised actually if the number of either model train diorama builders or rock climbers is a whole lot more than the estimated number of D&D gamers.

Whether or not the numbers are greater than D&D players, both model railroading and rock climbing are decidedly mainstream hobbies. And have been far longer than D&D's been around.

But I would say that work is one of the things that sets the true hobbyist apart from the general entertainment consumer. Many, maybe even most, hobbies require a bit of work - woodworking, fly tying, baking, macrame, knitting, model railroading, pigeon fancying, etc. That's rather the point. They aren't all passive entertainments like watching television, they are something to do.