Is D&D Art?

[Gryph]

Ouch. Okay, that's an extreme example. You brought it up, though, so I'll hope you will accept a basic comment - your mother's death was not the result of use of skill or creative imagination.

D&D play is the result of skill and creative imagination, so there's some apples and oranges there.

True enough though the Ebert quote didn't include skill or creative imagination. I'll accept your combination of the two definitions as a much better definition than either standing alone.

If a tree falls in a forest, not only does someone have to be there to hear it, but they need to have a tape recorder? No, sorry, I don't accept that one. For most of human history, the art of story telling was practiced by people who didn't know how to write - they were still producing art, as far as I am concerned.

But, if you wish to look at it another way - the game, the story, the unrecorded song all leave traces in memory.

I still stand by my belief that their is a fundamental difference between art and activities that seek to communicate on an emotional level. Performance art, singing, story telling seek to communicate with the observer and are often emotive and evocative. But, memory is a fleeting and funny thing. A quick game of Postman or conversation with a police investigator will make it pretty clear that memory is an iffy means of recording events.

After all, when the tree has fallen it's still lying there as a record of its fall.

 

[Gryph]

I don't think D&D leaves no trace of itself. If that's the case, what is ENWorld for? Even groups that don't transcribe or record sessions experience and remember them.

I have to disagree with the premise that art has to leave a tangible product. Many musicians would say that their live performances in front of audiences are better methods of creative expression than processed recordings in a studio. Most performance art (music, drama, comedy, storytelling) throughout history hasn't left a trace behind, and these art forms predate art that produces physical products.


It seems you are taking a lot of heat for this one as I've been ninja'd twice. It's nothing personal, just an intellectual disagreement.

Well I did say I expected the heat .

Performance is an outstanding method of creative expression and I agree as an audience member of many fine musicians that the performance can be better at communicating with the audience then the studio recording.

But I can't re-attend that performance and re-examine it or judge it's impact on myself at a different state of personal experience or emotional state.

I guess basically my stance is: Art is a creative endeavour but not all creative endeavours are art.

 

[Argyle King]

I answered no only because the question was specific to a certain game, and I currently view my sessions with D&D to be mostly game.

However, had you asked if I feel rpgs are art, I would have said yes. There are games which (in my mind anyway) I play in a manner which is less pure game and more art.

 

[Gryph]

I answered no only because the question was specific to a certain game, and I currently view my sessions with D&D to be mostly game.

However, had you asked if I feel rpgs are art, I would have said yes. There are games which (in my mind anyway) I play in a manner which is less pure game and more art.

This is an interesting stance. Could you expand a bit on why you would consider some RPGs art and not others (I'm presuming that D&D isn't unique in your view an not art)?

 

[Ahnehnois]

But D&D is also a game. This does not exclude it from being Art but it doesn't guarantee it will be Art either. A Musical composition is music, this doesn't exclude it from being Art, nor does it guarantee it will be Art either. They are not mutually exclusive categories, but then again they are not necessarily equivalent.
...
Sometimes music is little more than noise, sometimes it is High Art.
...
If you insist that every time a game be played it must be Art, then it is in my opinion very similar to saying that every time a film is made it must be Art. But we all know that is not true.
...
Sometimes the film is Art and sometimes it's a film like Dungeons and Dragons (I couldn't resist it folks).

I guess we're defining art very differently. I would say that music and film are subsets of art. Even if a piece of music is little more than noise, it is art. Not necessarily, "high art" or good art, but art nonetheless. Similarly, I'd say the D&D movie is a really awful artistic work, but it is art. So are the crappy pieces of clay I rendered when I was eight that sit on my shelves. "Game" and "art" on the other hand, are indeed distinct categories with some degree of overlap.

D&D, or any really good game, is not necessarily an Art, but then again nothing is guaranteed Art just because it is. It becomes Art because of what it becomes. If done right.

I see your point.

I answered no only because the question was specific to a certain game, and I currently view my sessions with D&D to be mostly game.

However, had you asked if I feel rpgs are art, I would have said yes. There are games which (in my mind anyway) I play in a manner which is less pure game and more art.

Ah, a very interesting point. I phrased the question the way I did because I was mirroring the combat thread, but it is worth making this distinction. As I'm primarily a D&D (3.X) player, that's my lens, but it may be that the larger rpg universe offers a different perspective. Obviously, D&D is both a standard for many and a game that provokes very diverse experiences.

I like to think of my D&D as art (as outlined elsewhere), but if you don't that's perfectly valid.

 

[Argyle King]

This is an interesting stance. Could you expand a bit on why you would consider some RPGs art and not others (I'm presuming that D&D isn't unique in your view an not art)?

My original instinct was to answer yes, but reading some of the responses prior to mine convinced me that my answer was more accurately a no.

I think D&D can be art. It's just been a long time since I've played D&D in a way which engages me in a manner which I would consider more like art as opposed to engaging me in a manner which starts to lean more toward just being a game. I personally feel that the current structure of the game and the manner in which the groups I know play the game tends to embrace the latter as the path of least resistance. This is not meant as a knock against the game, and I still do enjoy D&D (as well as regularly play,) but it somehow seems different now than it was before. I suppose -to me- it more often feels like the G has gained dominance over the acronym.

As for being unique... hmm, I'm not sure. I'm still exploring other games, so it is an opinion that is still being forged. I think it's less a matter of me singling out D&D among rpgs, and more a matter of whether or not I currently still fully view D&D as a rpg. In the context of this question, I find myself curious if I would say playing Descent is art. What if I roleplayed during it? Would that be art? Does roleplaying during Yahtzee make it art?

I'm honestly not sure how I see where I place D&D in the art/game spectrum. Like I said, my initial impulse was to answer yes. I have just recently (within the past few hours) found myself wanting to say no, so I am still exploring my own answer and why I gave it. Still, it somehow feels right to me.

 

[Ahnehnois]

My original instinct was to answer yes, but reading some of the responses prior to mine convinced me that my answer was more accurately a no.

I think D&D can be art. It's just been a long time since I've played D&D in a way which engages me in a manner which I would consider more like art as opposed to engaging me in a manner which starts to lean more toward just being a game. I personally feel that the current structure of the game and the manner in which the groups I know play the game tends to embrace the latter as the path of least resistance. This is not meant as a knock against the game, and I still do enjoy D&D (as well as regularly play,) but it somehow seems different now than it was before. I suppose -to me- it more often feels like the G has gained dominance over the acronym.

As for being unique... hmm, I'm not sure. I'm still exploring other games, so it is an opinion that is still being forged. I think it's less a matter of me singling out D&D among rpgs, and more a matter of whether or not I currently still fully view D&D as a rpg. In the context of this question, I find myself curious if I would say playing Descent is art. What if I roleplayed during it? Would that be art? Does roleplaying during Yahtzee make it art?

I'm honestly not sure how I see where I place D&D in the art/game spectrum. Like I said, my initial impulse was to answer yes. I have just recently (within the past few hours) found myself wanting to say no, so I am still exploring my own answer and why I gave it. Still, it somehow feels right to me.

I guess I already gave XP, but that is a really interesting post. As much as the definition of art has been pondered above, the definition of D&D is equally relevant.

There are plenty of people on these boards who have played several editions of D&D over different time periods with different groups, but I have played only one version with one (albeit fluid) group, so I don't perceive any change in the game, only in my style.

In the narrativism-gamism-simulationism paradigm, I'd say narrativism is mostly the "art" aspect. Obviously some rpgs are more gamist or simulationist than others, perhaps to the point where they aren't art.

 

[the Jester]

It can be. More often, though, I think "D&D as art" comes about during dm prep.

 

[Umbran]

It can be. More often, though, I think "D&D as art" comes about during dm prep.

I see it as quite the opposite. I see the art come about more as the players portray characters, people other than themselves. There's a whole lot more art in that drama, when well done, than in any prep-work I do as a GM.

 

[Hussar]

Apologies for not attributing that quote. I put it in because it's a statement that jumped out at me as being a complete aberration, but when I thought about it I wondered if it might not be the prevailing opinion. It's certainly not wrong, I just honestly don't know what you're playing D&D for if not to create a story. The circular statement at the end there didn't really satisfy my curiosity.

***
/snip

When I go fishing, I go to catch fish, be outdoors, enjoy nature. I don't go fishing to create fishing stories.

When I play chess, I play to enjoy (and usually lose) a game, not to create any sort of persistant narrative.

When I play D&D, I play to enjoy D&D - the fiddly bits included - which generally means go somewhere, kill something and take its stuff. I'm not there to create anything to be consumed by anyone else, which, in my mind anyway, for something to be about creating art, I'd want to share it with other people.

If I want to play a game where we are getting together to create a shared narrative, D&D is not my system of choice. It's complex in all the wrong places for my tastes.

So, no, it's just a game that I enjoy with my friends.

Again, to me.