is D&D evil? Thoughts please

[bloodymage]

Filling in the blanks...

Just a couple of things I've noticed about this discussion that require a little clarification, IMHO.

First off, there's a big difference between "religion/religious" and Christianity. Jesus' biggest problems as a mortal were from religious people. Religion is about form and "law." Christanity is about grace. The term "born again" refers to this for one is born again into a personal saving relationship with Christ. My point in this is that condemning D&D as evil is a very legalistic position. A position of grace on the other hand, might lead one to try and understand the personal and social dynamics of an RP session. Of course, people are people and it's easier to label and denounce out of hand than to investigate openly and objectively.

Secondly, Wicht my brother, you did a fine job of explaining some Christians objections to the game. The reason I quit gaming as a new Christian was to not have an open ear to Satan. Had nothing to do with a sudden revelation that "D&D is evil." At that point in my growth I needed to "think on only good things." I will point out to all that this is not to imply that D&D is a "bad thing." It's simply not specifically of God and "that book" teaches that whatever is not godly can be used by Satan to deceive. The clarification here is that, Christianity being a personal journey, there are more compelling personal reasons to avoid D&D than reputation and avoiding offense.

PS: I've returned to the enjoyment of my favorite hobby after 10 years (what changes!) because I finally understand grace.

 

[chatdemon]

Re: Filling in the blanks...

PS: I've returned to the enjoyment of my favorite hobby after 10 years (what changes!) because I finally understand grace.

Well put Bloodymage. I guess the real problem with topics like this is lack of understanding, from everyone, myself included. I didn't understand (and still don't, to be honest) what Kreynolds was saying, but I did go overboard in my responses. Apologies are in order, so Kreynolds, sorry for going off the deep end, we'll just have to agree to disagree, and everyone else, sorry for wasting your time.

I think I should step back from this topic though, it's just bound to get my temper flaring again.

 

[CWD]

He claimed it was bad because it fostered escapism. It also let people "play god" by designing worlds and writing histories.

My feeling (as a very liberal Christian) is that if we are made in God's image, it means we are supposed to "play God", and that includes not only writing stories but the unstoppable march of science. When children play house they aren't mocking adults, they are striving to be more like them.

And here's an observation for you, my current gaming group has three christians, and three atheists. Who enjoys playing evil wizards the most? A christian. Who enjoys playing devout paladins the most? An atheist. Do RPGs encourage people to see the world from other points of view? Possibly. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so.

 

[Wicht]

Re: Filling in the blanks...

Secondly, Wicht my brother, you did a fine job of explaining some Christians objections to the game. ... The clarification here is that, Christianity being a personal journey, there are more compelling personal reasons to avoid D&D than reputation and avoiding offense.

PS: I've returned to the enjoyment of my favorite hobby after 10 years (what changes!) because I finally understand grace.

Welcome back to the game!

And I want to make it clear that there are numerous legitimate reasons a Christian might not want to play DnD and I did not mean to imply I was hitting them all, I was just addressing the reasons that the original subject might be most concerned about. Personally I think your reason for abstaining was the best of them all and if ever I quit the game (even briefly) it will be because it detracts from other more important things I could be doing.

After reading through all the posts, I think my main point is that it is possible, despite the naysaying from some here, to communicate to the Christian community (an individual at a time) that DnD and Roleplaying in general are not occult activities.

The following attitude seems to be a popular one, but it is misinformed.

Originally posted by BMF
I used to debate with Christians whenever I got the chance, but I learned that it is nearly impossible to reach them. I could go on and on about the psychological factors involved, but suffice it to say that once a person starts to believe (for religious reasons) that DnD is evil, there is no reaching them. They will continue to hold that belief no matter what you tell them or show them.

However, if you feel that you MUST try to change their minds, facts are your best ally. Unfortunately, there are not many facts about God, so you probably won't get far. Furthermore, they eventually fall back on the "it's a matter of faith, not fact" argument.

It is not nearly impossible to reach Christians per se, but it is probably extrememly tricky if you cannot respect where they are coming from on the issue. If you have the attitude that the Bible is just another book, you will not reach them. If you have the attitude that Christianity is about blind unreasoning faith and a lack of facts, you will not reach them. In fact if you have these attitudes I would plead with you not to try to reach them because you will only be reinforcing their presuppositions about the gaming community.

However, if one can approach them with a respect for the Bible and a respect for their capability to reason for themselves, in my experience it is very easy to persuade them, and as I stated once already, I have yet to fail to convince a fellow Christian, when I have tried, that DnD is not inherently satanic. Now granted, I don't make it an everpresent issue, but when and if it becomes an issue it is easily addressed. But it is easily addressed because I don't begin by attacking their use of the scriptures. I begin by agreeing with them about what the scriptures say and then go on from there and show how DnD does not inherently violate what those scriptures teach.

Its the old adage about catching more flies with honey (though I have never understood why you want to waste good honey on catching flies).

 

[castlewalls]

his response to website

I sent my friend the link GOSPOG posted (nice site BTW) and he sent this email back - I fear for his mental well-being... I just wish I knew why he's so,.... I'm not sure I can even find the words.
My wife reminded me about Pokemon too. He made his kids get rid of their cards because they were EVIL. No lie! -Jim

Reply to www.theescapist.com website:
"Another person ignorant of how god's creation is structured and the basic principles of the spiritual side of human beings. Unfortunately he just doesn't get it. In a war, misinformation, and deceit are the best weapons in Satan's arsenal. Of course he would want you to believe its harmless! THAT'S HOW HE SUCKS YOU IN! Can't say you were not warned......"

 

[HalfElfSorcerer]

I'm a reconstructionist Jew (very liberal, fairly religious). My rabbi is very liberal. He is thirtyish, an enviromentalist, vegetarian, and all-around cool guy. He is very religious. I've never asked, but it's likely he could have played DnD.

The point? Just never say a "religious" person isn't going to play D&D

 

[castlewalls]

End of thread please

Thank you all for replying. Please let this thread end now. I've got a lot to think about - separating my reaction from my thinking in replying to my friend.

The burning man wrote: "When it comes right down to it though, you can't really argue with someone else's beliefs if you don't understand them." He's right as are many of you. I need to get my friend to EXPLAIN his thoughts & get him away from his reactionary scriptural quoting.

There were many other good thoughts from you guys. I'm sorry if some flames shot up over this. I had no idea it would have gone on so long & ask forgiveness from those who thought my posts might have been reactionary (If they weren't, I wasn't being myself.... I did send him the M. Stackpole report (excellent reading!) and await his response.

Again, thanks to all.
END OF POST!!!!!!

 

[Green Knight]

is D&D evil? Thoughts please

Well, the consensus on the answer to this question isn't exactly surprising when you ask it on a D&D board.

Anyway, I personally haven't had any trouble for it. A lot of my family is devout catholic, and no one's ever said I'm going to hell or anything of the sort for it. And a lot of them were very supportive when I told them about the WoTC campaign setting contest, and helped me out with what I needed to send in my submission. (BTW: For those who think that "liberal" means tolerance, my family's stridently conservative, as am I. Not only that, they're Cuban, and most of them are immigrants).

I don't think, however, that someone like Jack Chick is exactly representative of the majority of Christians. Though I thought that strip was a laugh riot. It was such an OBVIOUS piece of propaganda and tripe. I'm surprised, though, that the friend of the guy who started this thread actually bought into that strip. He's played D&D. He should know that DM's don't actually introduce their players to the occult the way that DM did with her player when they increase in level. Nor are people driven to suicide when their characters die (Though I HAVE gotten pissed off at other players when they screw with my character, but that's because they bring their personal problems with me into the game, rather than being upfront about whatever problems they have with me face to face like a man).

BTW: Does anyone have a link to a site about Christian gamers? This topic came up a couple months ago and in it someone posted a link to a site about Christian gamers. Can someone point me towards it? Thanks.

 

[teitan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: response

It DOES matter if the contents of that book are believed by the people who read it to be the word of God?

Are you really this stupid, or just trying to be an ? Either way, you're doing very well.

Despite my occultist leanings I do have a ministerial license and a Masters in Religion which means I have done extensive studyand I would like to point out that the people who think or believe the Bible is the actual word of God need to rethink that. Most of them have never read the whole thing, or even done work with the original Hewbrew Language enough the realize that God is a mistranslation of the Hebrew Word Elhohim, which if properly translated is a plural masculine of a feminine noun, and should be read as "GODS". The working of the word had to have been purposeful to encompass the entirety of the Beni Elohim, or creaator gods. Another thing that this belief it is the word of God implies that women are to be subjugated to the will of man or draw their own opinion on what the Bible means, as this is what Paul writes in COrinthians. I don't have a Bible anymore or I would cite chapter and verse. Even in the translation there are so many errors due to translator bias it is ridiculous. I currently do not recall who, but one of the characters of the Bible sodomized his father because he was disappointed in him and angered with him. That is the actual translation, not Knew him, which is often used by translators to describe ab act that they find repulsive, though it is not written as such in the Hebrew. Sodom and Gamorrah contains no verse condemning homosexuality in the original Hebrew and the admonition against Witchcraft has been ridiculously been expanded by Fundies to include the Hebrew Kabbalah, which was used my Moses, SOlomon and David, not to discount whoever the historical Jesus was had thave some knowledge of the Kabballah.

 

[Bonedagger]

Of course D&D is evil. Can't you see it ? Those two D's. They look like eyes.... Eyes staring at you... Telling you to do stuff.... Telling me.... "Must.. Kill....... Must... Maim..... Ouch!.. Hot coffee!" Oh yes. Where were I? It is an old symbol representing dark powers. But in our modern society we know that the idea of evil is just a behavioristic tool to guide the "uninformed". Nothing to fear here. Trust me.