Is D&D Really Mythic Roleplaying? Is this what Epic Tier (20th-30th lvl) represents?

[Simon Marks]

But 4e is tailored to be a miniature dungeon crawl game. And by dungeon I mean a map with squares, each square having its importance regarding its relation with the other squares.

You keep saying this, but it doesn't make it any more true.

 

[glass]

D&D 4e is a miniatures skirmish game. The Epic style is on a different-higher level. Storyteller fits Epic more IMO.

I think they should have stopped at paragon. Make Epic a different sourcebook-playbook, that it would play without minis.

3e play without minis fine at all levels. No reason to assume 4e will be any different.


glass.

 

[xechnao]

You keep saying this, but it doesn't make it any more true.

Yeah, so are you perhaps saying it isn't true? If what we know so far of 4e rules does not indicate a tactical map game I should be crazy.

3e play without minis fine at all levels. No reason to assume 4e will be any different.


glass.

It would be like playing chess without a board. Perhaps even worse with all the specific terrain emphasis they want to add.

 

[shilsen]

But 4e is tailored to be a miniature dungeon crawl game. And by dungeon I mean a map with squares, each square having its importance regarding its relation with the other squares.

But D&D is tailored to be a game of addition. After all, to achieve any action in the game, you usually have to roll one or more dice and add them to something.

But D&D is tailored to be a game about social hierarchy and upward mobility. After all, one of the most important things to determining a character's power in the game world is his level, and he is constantly supposed to be working upwards towards the next level.

But D&D is tailored to be a game about psycopaths and sociopaths. After all, the majority of the game is about killing things and taking their stuff.

...

In short, I think you're fixating on one small element of the ruleset and unfairly/inaccurately characterizing the entire game on that basis.

 

[Simon Marks]

Yeah, so are you perhaps saying it isn't true? If what we know so far of 4e rules does not indicate a tactical map game I should be crazy.

Repeating an Opinion doesn't turn it into a fact. Your opinion is that 4e will be a Tactical Map Game. You've said that - three times? - on this thread.

It's an opinion, and as such it only needed to be shared once.

 

[FourthBear]

It would be like playing chess without a board. Perhaps even worse with all the specific terrain emphasis they want to add.

You know, lots of people do play chess without a board.

In any case, since all editions of D&D have had tactical positioning and movement rules, I think that this means that maps and tokens are often very useful for playing D&D. They aren't necessary, though.

The primary objection I have to your original statement is that D&D is a "dungeon crawl" game and the implication that this somehow made it difficult for use in mythic storytelling. I don't believe either is true. That dungeon crawls are a common trope in D&D games does not reduce D&D to a dungeon crawl game. The numerous adventures and campaigns in D&D not involving dungeon crawls are sufficient evidence of this.

As to whether D&D *should* aim epic play for more mythic tales, I have to admit that I'm not quite sure "mythic" play is well enough defined to distinguish it. Are we primarily referring to characters becoming and interacting with more iconic, abstracted beings? It is referring to more adventure challenges dealing with cosmological and reality-underlying issues, rather than conflicts with specific examples of these concepts?

 

[xechnao]

But D&D is tailored to be a game of addition. After all, to achieve any action in the game, you usually have to roll one or more dice and add them to something.

But D&D is tailored to be a game about social hierarchy and upward mobility. After all, one of the most important things to determining a character's power in the game world is his level, and he is constantly supposed to be working upwards towards the next level.

But D&D is tailored to be a game about psycopaths and sociopaths. After all, the majority of the game is about killing things and taking their stuff.

...

In short, I think you're fixating on one small element of the ruleset and unfairly/inaccurately characterizing the entire game on that basis.

No. Your points are fixating on small elements of D&D ruleset. If one takes all the text necessary out of D&D core books to just indicate rules regarding your points they seem they could fit it in less than a dozen pages. OTOH, if one only wanted to isolate the full ruleset regarding combat he would need hundreds of them.

 

[med stud]

An excellent source of inspiration for epic level D&D is Sepulchrave's story hour. That game is my golden standard for epic play.

Wyrmshadows, if you haven't read it yet, give it a go! In addition to seeing epic levels done right, it is also an entertaining read with very interesting PCs and NPCs!

Xechnao, read that story hour to see what can be done with the D&D game.

 

[Doug McCrae]

The only difference between D&D PCs and mythic heroes is the work rate. Both kill monsters and take their stuff. Theseus even went into a dungeon to do it. Both go to hell and come back. D&D characters just do it more often and have more magic items, which is what strains credulity.

Mythic heroes come in low and high level varieties too. Bellerophon needed a trick to kill the chimera - no superhero he. Hercules mostly slew his foes with brute strength.

 

[FireLance]

Can D&D, by the book, based on the assumptions of the game and not individual campaigns, support a game that makes epic levels more meaningful than just cosmic dungeoncrawls?

Depends of which "book" you are going by. The core rules are probably going to be like Strunk and White's The Elements Of Style - lots of technical advice, but not really inspirational reading.

A mythical adventures supplement, or a high-level published adventure that stresses mythical elements more than dungeon crawls might be able to do that, though.