Is D&D Really Mythic Roleplaying? Is this what Epic Tier (20th-30th lvl) represents?

[SKyOdin]

In myths, the characters are constant. Most mythic characters do a handful of things throughout the scope of a society's mythos, but during their tales they very rarely gain power. They might metamorphose into something new, but Zeus is pretty much always Zeus. He didn't ever "gain" his lightning bolts. Coyote is always Coyote. He never took a prestige class.

So if you want a mythic game, start the characters at a high level, and don't let them gain experience.

First, I don't think this is a particular trope of mythology. In written fiction in general this is a common trope. Did Aragorn really get stronger over the course of the Lord of the Rings? Not really. He started off with all of the skills he used through the story. Ditto for Gimli and Legolas. The only ones who gained strength were the hobbits.

Furthermore, there are plenty of mythic figures who grow stronger over the course of their stories. First of all, Zeus did "gain" his lightning bolts, They were forged for him by the Cyclops in preparation for his war against his father. Zeus's adventure was his battle to become King of the Gods, the rest of Greek mythology was his retirement. For another Greek example, Perseus clearly grew stronger as he confronted new opponents and acquired more magic weapons and items. In the Ramayana, Rama and his brother are trained by a wiseman from the woods, and Rama himself matures quite a bit across the story. Cuchulainn traveled across the sea to train under the warrior-woman Scathath, who taught him numerous arts. Cuchulainn was significantly stronger in the main body of the Tain than in the early parts.

Also, very seldom in myths do multiple characters collaborate. That shows up more in epics, like the Odyssey, . . . I'm sure there are other examples, but I was up 'til 4am last night killing Tiamat, so I'm a little out of it. Most myths are about one protagonist and how he interacts with the world and with other characters. You don't get Hercules, Thor, and Son-Goku teaming up to deal with a threat.

Gilgamesh had Enkidu. Thor traveled around with Loki and others. Rama fought alongside his brother, Hanuman the monkey, and an entire army. Son-Goku was just one of a band of four travelers. Jason lead an entire ship full of heroes. While one character often steals the show, they often have companions.

Again, myths are often about explaining how the world is. They can be simply demonstrative -- the sun? that's Apollo's chariot -- or they can tell about how things came to be -- and God confused their tongues, and soon the Tower of Babel fell. Myths are very seldom about 'beating' someone. Much more often, they're about being defeated, which causes some persistent suffering in the world. Shouldn't've listened to the snake, Eve.

In his most famous essay among literary academics, J. R. R. Tolkien brought up the point that Beowulf was first and foremost told as a form of entertainment. Back before movies and wide-spread literacy, telling stories about gods and heroes was a way of entertaining people. In that way, myths are no different from books, movies, video-games, or table-top RPGs.


I think myths and legends are great sources of inspiration for D&D. If you assume that no ordinary human in a D&D campaign gets bast low heroic levels, than an Epic level D&D character is as super-human as some of the great warriors from these legends. Cuchulainn massacred an entire army single-handedly. A single level 30 Fighter could probably do the same. Since I have never though of D&D as a game built around dungeon crawling (the last campaign I was in went to level 16 with only one short dungeon in its entire 2-year run), I don't think that is a good excuse why D&D would be bad at mythic adventure.

An epic tier campaign where the PCs have to fight back against an army of demons led by Orcus himself rampaging across the face of the world would be a very mythic-style campaign. 200 years later, there would be legends passed down by bards speaking of the PCs' exploits.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Personally I don't think that D&D is really geared for mythic role-playing. When D&D does epic (ie. mythic) what I see, unless one has a very good DM and excellent players willing to go deeper into things, is an extension of the same. Instead of 10th level dungeons, there are now 23rd level dungeons, more slaughter, more aquisition ad nauseum until the PCs either die or retire. D&D can be much deeper than this, and for many it is, but lets face it for many epic means nothing more than a greater level of power ups.
This doesn't strike me as mythic in any way.

I think you're conflating mythic campaign structures and mythic power here. Traditionally, D&D (with the notable exception of BECMI) has ignored the "tiers" that are implicit in the level advancement system. Over their careers, PCs go from being barely more competent than the average dirt farmer (or, in the case of 3e, barely more competent than the average trained city watchman) to being Conan-tough to being virtual demigods. The *abilities* demonstrated by high-level PCs are easily more mythic than heroic, which is why I think that D&D is actually *better* geared for mythic adventure than for grim and gritty Thieves' World-style play.

(Personally, I also see a game in which PCs go from level 1 dungeons to level 10 dungeons to level 20 dungeons as a game that involves poor adventure design. IMO, high-level adventures should feel extremely different from low-level ones. BECMI did a great job of this, with the split between low-level dungeon crawls, mid-level wilderness exploration and intrigue, high-level domain rulership and mass battles, and super-high-level flying armada odysseys and quests for immortality.)

As delericho said, 4e is finally taking these implicit divisions and making them clear up front. Want to play a Conan-style adventure series, where your PC is certainly as tough as a guy can get but still is incapable of breaking the bounds of physics without sorcery, and where sorcery is difficult and limited? Play heroic tier. Want to play a great saga in which heroes swim the open sea and fight galleon-sized sea monsters? Play paragon tier. Want to play a game in which your character is a virtual demigod, capable of wrestling colossal monsters to the ground Gilgamesh-style, raising castles from the foundation of the earth overnight, or wading through an army of thousands without more than a scratch? Play epic tier.

 

[Hussar]

Can D&D, by the book, based on the assumptions of the game and not individual campaigns, support a game that makes epic levels more meaningful than just cosmic dungeoncrawls?

Yes. And, to be fair, 3e does it as well. Look at the Adventure Paths as a perfect example. In all 3 Paizo AP's, the party starts out as local heroes doing local hero stuff - save the orphans in Shackled City, stop the thieves guild in Savage Tide.

By the end of the AP's, they are battling things that are either gods (Kyuss) or things that are close enough to divinity that they can see it on a clear day (Demogorgon). Heck, at the end of the Savage Tide, it's quite possible that someone could take control of Demogorgon's realm. There are threads on the Paizo boards talking about schemes to rip the whole realm out of the abyss and sail it through the Astral plane.

Now THAT'S myffic.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

On my conflation of Epic level RPing with Mythic RPing

It has been mentioned that I am conflating epic level D&D rping with mythic, Age of Heroes type RPing.

I argue that for Epic Level D&D to possess any real versimilitude within the tropes of fantasy as opposed to comic superhero roleplaying, epic play should take place as if seen in a mythic hero context.

According to epic 3.5 rules and what I read about 4e, everyone past a certain level has abilities that can only be described as supernatural. Within traditional fantasy the only folks that have the ability to tap into the supernatural are those with a mystical/magical leaning such as wizards or those possessing other than human bloodlines (like the fey blood of Merlin or Gandalf being one of the Istari if I am correct). Warriors, thieves, and others who aren't supernatural in their ability cannot perform supernatural feats even though they perform the kind of cinematic actions capable of heroes in novels or movies.

Generally speaking, cinematic combat, if not taken too far still looks possible (especially from the the perspective of those who know little to nothing of what real combat entails). Supernatural abilities, when performed by those such as wizards and priests seem completely sensible within the internal fantasy logic of most fantasy gaming and fiction.

However, once a martial character (warrior, soldier, knight, thief or anyone who relies on pure skill to kill with a weapon) crosses into the realm of the improbable or impossible within the internal genre logic of fantasy RPing and fiction, there is a natural disconnect and the threat of damaging suspension of disbelief. Such characters essentially become superheroes of the Marvel/DC variety because they are no longer relying on knowledge or skill but instead like Spiderman, Captain America, or the Flash, are relying on inherent powers. In fantasy this power is, by default supernatural (even if its called chi or psi). A good example of the siliness of fantasy superheroism is the transformation of Legolas into a shieldsurfing demigod in the LoTR movies...blech.

The only way around this is to enter the realm of the mythic where men transcend their humanity and do the impossible by merit of a birthright, divine gifts, etc. If the game becomes mythic in character at 21-30th level, then D&D characters are more than mere superheroes but become something beyond mortals altogther. Taking D&D into the realm of the mythic at these levels will still allow high level heroes to feel like fantasy heroes and not just regular people with cool powers who are essentially superheroes without the spandex.



Wyrmshadows

 

[Wyrmshadows]

Yes. And, to be fair, 3e does it as well. Look at the Adventure Paths as a perfect example. In all 3 Paizo AP's, the party starts out as local heroes doing local hero stuff - save the orphans in Shackled City, stop the thieves guild in Savage Tide.

By the end of the AP's, they are battling things that are either gods (Kyuss) or things that are close enough to divinity that they can see it on a clear day (Demogorgon). Heck, at the end of the Savage Tide, it's quite possible that someone could take control of Demogorgon's realm. There are threads on the Paizo boards talking about schemes to rip the whole realm out of the abyss and sail it through the Astral plane.

Now THAT'S myffic.

LOL

That is myffic.

I guess it all depends on how each individual campaign handles epic levels. I would like 4e to support DMs in transforming the PC in their game into mythic heroes who become icons whose stories last potentially thousands of years through their deeds, like Achilles and Gilgamesh and not merely as really high level adventurers.

Its about feel somewhat and perhaps more an art than a science.



Wyrmshadows

 

[king_ghidorah]

D&D 4e is a miniatures skirmish game. The Epic style is on a different-higher level. Storyteller fits Epic more IMO.

I think they should have stopped at paragon. Make Epic a different sourcebook-playbook, that it would play without minis.

Of course, this is a charge I have heard leveled at every edition of D&D since I was in college in the 1980s, supported by the "obvious" issues in the rules -- the focus on combat rules, the use of wargame influenced descriptions (inches in 1st edition, missile scatter rules, etc.) Such claims have always had some level of truth, but ultimately proven to be untrue in all instances thus far. I suspect this will still be the case for 4e.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Superhero comics have been called a 'modern mythology'. DC in the 50s exemplifies this. Mermaids, a city in a bottle, science as magic. They were more fairy tales than anything.

Superman = Balder. Greatest of his generation, the perfect man. Vulnerability to a single substance causes tragic death. Superman dies many times in DC's Silver Age though they are all 'imaginary stories'.

Krona = Pandora, bringing evil into the world through the sin of unbridled curiosity. They even combined it with a creation myth - that mysterious hand cradling the stars.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

Superhero comics have been called a 'modern mythology'. DC in the 50s exemplifies this. Mermaids, a city in a bottle, science as magic. They were more fairy tales than anything.

Superman = Balder. Greatest of his generation, the perfect man. Vulnerability to a single substance causes tragic death. Superman dies many times in DC's Silver Age though they are all 'imaginary stories'.

Krona = Pandora, bringing evil into the world through the sin of unbridled curiosity. They even combined it with a creation myth - that mysterious hand cradling the stars.

I have no doubt that this is true. If one just read Joseph Campbell's Power of Myth and The Hero with a Thousand Faces (to say nothing of his Masks of God series) one sees the recurring themes that seems part and parcel of human consciousness. This is, of course reflected in our stories because it seems to be part of us.

However, what I would like to see is D&D characters not as superheroes but as heroes in the old-school mythic context. By this I mean the character may have superhero level abilities but they are earned via the journey or discovered during the journey from dirt farmer to demigod. In our modern myths, the supernatual element is dispensed with in most comic superheroes instead making it a mutation, freak accident, their an alien, etc. In fantasy, the supernatural must be invoked to prevent D&D heroes from being the X-men.

Then in regard to feel and thematic elements of a epic/mythic game, I think that the DM should make sure that the players know that when their characters step into the epic tier, they are treading ground upon which only a relative handful of mortals ever have and that now, more than ever, they have a significance that makes them the center of the world.

The player should feel that, "Wow, my PC is friggin Gilgamesh...that is amazing!"

Not, "Cool, I just turned 25th level, let me modify my character build as necessary."

Its a sense of wonder that the DM must get across that if you are victorious you will be remembered forever and your deeds will echo all the way up to the thrones of the gods. That's mythic.



Wyrmshadows

 

[Incenjucar]

To really get the mythic feel in, D&D needs to adopt far more mythic-level tropes than it defaults to.

One of the really popular mythic factors is making permanent changes in how the world works, or at the very least, the geography.

Hopefully, epic monsters will include a Living River, so you can play Achilles, and suggestions on how to create truly unique, one-shot monsters, so you can be why peacocks have eyes on their tails.

Hmm.. perhaps singular "blueprint" versions of animals, whose status determines that of all their kin, so if you burn their tail, the tails of all its kind are blackened forever.

 

[Hussar]

Bleakkkk Please don't bring Sense of Wonder into what's been a perfectly reasonable conversation so far. It's almost as bad as bringing up Tolkien.