That is because all stat bonuses in 3Ed and beyond are linear...and the pre-3Ed Str chart was simply wonky.
Is D&D (WotC) flaming out?
- Thread starter Olgar Shiverstone
- Start date
My group converted their 2E characters to 3.0 a few months after the new edition came out. The biggest change that I noted was that many of the PC's got a power up because they had ability scores in the 14-16 range that gave them effectively no benefit in 2E but had greater benefit in 3E.
Stormonu
NeoGrognard
How did this evolve into a discussion of converting 2E characters to 3E?
Focus, people, focus! <emperor's voice> Unleash your hate...only it can destroy this thread!
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The only problem we had in the 2E to 3E conversion was with an elvin F/MU, everyone else was single-classed (and strangely, the group of 8 only had two non-humans, an elf and a halfling). Never would have even considered attempting to do conversion for 4E, just made brand-new characters.
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Focus, people, focus! <emperor's voice> Unleash your hate...only it can destroy this thread!
[sblock]
The only problem we had in the 2E to 3E conversion was with an elvin F/MU, everyone else was single-classed (and strangely, the group of 8 only had two non-humans, an elf and a halfling). Never would have even considered attempting to do conversion for 4E, just made brand-new characters.
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Again, its apparant you arent paying attention to catsclaws examples. Do the majority of AP go more railroad like you say? Sure. Buyt they dont necessarily have to. Kingmaker is much more snadbox then AP. Same with Sumbering Tsar.
Both have much more sandbox features then railroad ones.
This thread has taught me the following:
4e is stale and doesn't have enough innovation
4e is changing too much and too rapidly
4e is changing just the right amount but is still doing it wrong
4e has way, way too many products coming out
4e has way, way too few products coming out
4e needs to be like 3e and have more rules
4e needs to be like 2e an have less rules
4e needs to be like 1e and have almost no rules
4e needs to have a smaller release schedule like TSR (LOLS.)
4e needs to have a more robust release schedule like 3e
4e needs more splats.
No less splats.
No the same splats but better.
Oh, and every single one of those is why 4e is doomed to day any day now, just like it was doomed to die when it first came out years ago.
4e is stale and doesn't have enough innovation
4e is changing too much and too rapidly
4e is changing just the right amount but is still doing it wrong
4e has way, way too many products coming out
4e has way, way too few products coming out
4e needs to be like 3e and have more rules
4e needs to be like 2e an have less rules
4e needs to be like 1e and have almost no rules
4e needs to have a smaller release schedule like TSR (LOLS.)
4e needs to have a more robust release schedule like 3e
4e needs more splats.
No less splats.
No the same splats but better.
Oh, and every single one of those is why 4e is doomed to day any day now, just like it was doomed to die when it first came out years ago.
Also, 3e was an incredibly huge change from 2e. 3e multiclassing and NPC/PC rules being the same are both things that exist in literally no other edition. Then you have feats and standardized wealth and buyable magic items and workable crafting and, and, and...
4e is a radical departure from previous games, indeed! Just as 3e was. 4e took some of the radical changes from 3e, reverted some back to the way they used to be, and added some of their own.
Also, 3e allowed for different styles of play, in that you could be a BMX Bandit or an Angel Summoner.
4e is a radical departure from previous games, indeed! Just as 3e was. 4e took some of the radical changes from 3e, reverted some back to the way they used to be, and added some of their own.
Also, 3e allowed for different styles of play, in that you could be a BMX Bandit or an Angel Summoner.
I think that 3.x was a huge change over what came before. Before, to play the game you had to say what you were doing; since 3E (4E is the same) you just roll the dice and add your modifiers. "Roll to see it" is an obvious example: before you had to say where you were searching. Now it doesn't matter what you say, all that matters is that you roll high on the D20 and have a good modifier to add to it.
This is doubly so for the social skills like Diplomacy. Before you actually had to speak in character or at least explain what point your character was making; now you just roll high on a D20 and have a good modifier to add.
The aftermath of this is evident when you try to play Old School games with New School gamers. I'm in a Classic Traveller campaign and one of the players is very New School. She will roll the dice without being prompted by the Referee and offer the result. Her character, an Imperial Peer, recently set up an important breakfast meeting with a subsector Marquis. My character attended as well and I hammed it up for a little bit; the Ref told me the gist of how the conversation went. When my friend's turn to talk came up, she said a couple of halting phrases, scowled, then rolled the dice. They came up snake eyes.
This is why I personally, in my non-binding personal aesthetic preference, prefer 4E to 3E. They're both just games about rolling high. But in 4E there are sometimes decisions that you get to make which impact the die rolls (i.e. your powers). In 3E there are comparatively few. But both of these games are totally different from Old School D&D and, to me, are woefully inferior.
This is doubly so for the social skills like Diplomacy. Before you actually had to speak in character or at least explain what point your character was making; now you just roll high on a D20 and have a good modifier to add.
The aftermath of this is evident when you try to play Old School games with New School gamers. I'm in a Classic Traveller campaign and one of the players is very New School. She will roll the dice without being prompted by the Referee and offer the result. Her character, an Imperial Peer, recently set up an important breakfast meeting with a subsector Marquis. My character attended as well and I hammed it up for a little bit; the Ref told me the gist of how the conversation went. When my friend's turn to talk came up, she said a couple of halting phrases, scowled, then rolled the dice. They came up snake eyes.
This is why I personally, in my non-binding personal aesthetic preference, prefer 4E to 3E. They're both just games about rolling high. But in 4E there are sometimes decisions that you get to make which impact the die rolls (i.e. your powers). In 3E there are comparatively few. But both of these games are totally different from Old School D&D and, to me, are woefully inferior.
Stormonu
NeoGrognard
I do appreciate the fact that the newer versions have a bit more separation between the character and the player. It's more possible for the wallflower player to ham up being a smooth-talking bard, relying on die rolls where his own interpersonal skills may be lacking. Likewise, the smooth-talking player can't just dump his charisma and expect his character to be as eloquent as the player.
I, myself, like to do a bit of acting to RP conversations and stuff, but I've got a couple players in my group who are uncomfortable or tend to put their foot in their mouth when speaking to NPC's, and for them, rolling is better than trying to act things out (though they do try at times). Forcing these folks to RP everything out would be like forcing me to don full plate and swing at target dummies with a sword to determine if I hit and what kind of damage I'm doing in combat.
Wiseblood
Adventurer
Interesting take. I have heard it argued before but before today I have never been compelled to agree.
I would instead like to see players get creative before picking up the dice. That mostly applies to dungeon settings though and the knowedge checks I hate those.
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