Is Entangle too good?

[Zerovoid]

Last night, I DM'd a wilderness type adventure for my party. It was about them returning to the town of Oakhurst (Sunless Citadel) and fighting the reincarnated evil Druid Belak as a centaur. At the height of the big battle, there were three big 40' circles drawn on our map, two Briar Webs from the PC druid, and one Entangle from Belak. The effect of the entangle spells completely dominated the combat, and led to alot of player frustration as the players were stuck for round after round, rolling strength checks. It seems like a DC 20 strenght check is just too high for a first level spell to require. Combine this with the huge 40' radius area, and Entangle seems like just too much of a killer. I won't comment specifially on Briar Web (DotF, MotW) because it is only a small uprade to entangle, and it seems like the base power of Entangle is the biggest problem.

Web 2nd lvl Wiz/Sorc Spell
20' area
Only entangles creatures initially in the area when it is cast.
Works almost anywhere.
Can easily be burned away with fire.
Str checks required to move through area.

Entangle 1st lvl Druid Spell
40' area
Tries to entangle creatures in the radius every round.
Works only in the wilderness.
Cannot be burned away.

Entangle seems way too good compared to Web, which I think is about right for a 2nd lvl spell. Now, obviously this extra power is warrented if Entangle is useful only in very limited situations, but in most campaigns, it seems like about 1/3 of combats take place in areas with enough vegetation for entangle to work.

More importantly, the spell just isn't fun. We talked about this after the game, and everyone agreed that the spell was very frustrating, and slowed down combat too much. One player said he groans whenever a PC casts this spell, because its just such a pain, even if it is an effective strategy.

I'm thinking of weakening the spell, and maybe making the strength check to escape = the casters spell save DC.

What do the rest of you think about this spell?

 

[Joust]

My opinion is that not all X level spells across various classes need to be exactly equal, just that they need to be in the ballpark. So while I agree that Entangle is a powerful 1st level spell for Druids, it's not completely out of line.

I've experienced some of the same feedback in regards to Entangle. If you're going to modify the spell, I'd leave the strength check stuff as is, but maybe decrease the radius to 20', and shorten the duration (I've always felt that 10 rounds per level is pretty long). My $.02.

Joust

 

[mzsylver]

entangle is VERY powerful for a 1st level spell. consequently, Briar Web is also far too powerful.

upping it a level might fix it. but from how ive seen it used it can screw up a party mightily.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Druids kinda suck, so let 'em have it.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Druids kinda suck, so let 'em have it

They do not!

 

[Wippit Guud]

Entangle is limited by it's area. Web can be cast anywhere.

 

[drowdude]

Entangle is perfectly balanced and fine as is.


Please note: The fact that I am currently playing a low-level druid has no bearing whatsoever here

 

[Malin Genie]

Part of the problem is that it should only be able to be cast in areas with significant vegetation. Wandering through a forest, characters should be vulnerable to a well-aimed entangle, but just wandering along a path in the 'wilderness' should not cut it (are the weeds growing out of the trodden earth going to wrap around the characters' toes?)

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

It's important to remember you can do stuff while entangled. Attack, cast spells, use items, whatever you want except move. Some of these things are harder (Spellcasting requires a concentration check DC 15) but still doable. Anybody who doesn't have a ranged weapon, well they'll have problems regardless of this spell. Also, it's a strength or escape artist check. Making the initial save means you should really not have a problem, if you're smart enough to get the heck out of the area...

Briar web is sick....but does have an answer to avoid all damage....stop. With the cover it gives range weapons aren't a great idea and anybody who comes in to kill you will take damage as well. Of course....the lightning bolt will hurt.....

Malin, that's exactly what happens....it's what the spell description states.

 

[Atticus_of_Amber]

My House Rule

In my campaign, I've ruled that the strength check DC to break out is modified by the thickness of vegetation in the area. These modifiers can vary from place to place within the same entangel spell's area of effect.

This is, to some extent, endorsed by the note at the end of the spell's description in the PHB.

Very light: DC14 (e.g. mown grass, pathway, etc)
Light: DC17 (e.g. natuaral grassland)
Medium: DC 20 (e.g. temperate forest)
Heavy: DC23 (e.g. thick forrest with undergrowth, jungle)
Very heavy: DC 26 (e.g. thick jungle)

I'm also considering ruling that the spell provides its victims with cover and/or concealment for its victims where the vegetation is greater than medium thickness.