Any PC who has found themselves in an area other than a luscious forest will tell you that entangle is not at all overpowered. The fact that vegetation has to be around is compeletely limiting. My druid has gotten to use the spell once in his whole career - he is now a 6th level character.
Is Entangle too good?
- Thread starter Zerovoid
- Start date
Lord Pendragon
First Post
As other posters have said, Entangle is balanced in large part by where you can cast it. I currently play in a campaign with a druid (who just hit 11th-level,) so we've had access to Entangle for a long time. The very first time the druid cast the spell, the DM was mighty surprised, and we were mighty glad, but after the initial shock, it hasn't been unbalancing in the least.
Can't count the number of times I've heard this conversation:
Druid Player: "Is there any vegetation around? Weeds, moss...anything?"
DM: In the {dungeon, castle, marketplace, cavern, pit, etc.}? Nope.
Everyone: "D'oh!"
Sure, you get good use out of it sometimes, but not often enough for it to be unbalanced. Also, providing they survive their first encounter with it, PCs should be ready to deal with an Entangle thrown their way. As DevoutlyApathetic points out, there are ways to deal with its effects.
Can't count the number of times I've heard this conversation:
Druid Player: "Is there any vegetation around? Weeds, moss...anything?"
DM: In the {dungeon, castle, marketplace, cavern, pit, etc.}? Nope.
Everyone: "D'oh!"
Sure, you get good use out of it sometimes, but not often enough for it to be unbalanced. Also, providing they survive their first encounter with it, PCs should be ready to deal with an Entangle thrown their way. As DevoutlyApathetic points out, there are ways to deal with its effects.
Dr. Zoom
First Post
Zerovoid wrote:
Shouldn't they have been 80 ft. circles? A 40 ft. radius is 80 feet. Likewise for the Web spell. Its effect is a 20 ft. radius, or 40 feet. Not a solution to your problem, I know, but these spells do have a large area of effect.
I don't think they are overpowered or unbalanced because of the terrain required to use them. But when this spell is used, it is quite effective. I have a ranger IMC with a wand of entangle and he has not had a chance to use it yet, but when he gets that chance I think he will really appreciate his magic item (he was not initially overjoyed with the wand).
Shouldn't they have been 80 ft. circles? A 40 ft. radius is 80 feet. Likewise for the Web spell. Its effect is a 20 ft. radius, or 40 feet. Not a solution to your problem, I know, but these spells do have a large area of effect.
I don't think they are overpowered or unbalanced because of the terrain required to use them. But when this spell is used, it is quite effective. I have a ranger IMC with a wand of entangle and he has not had a chance to use it yet, but when he gets that chance I think he will really appreciate his magic item (he was not initially overjoyed with the wand).
mzsylver
Explorer
Kaptain_Kantrip said:Druids kinda suck, so let 'em have it.
dude! if i could remake my rogue-invoker i would SO make her a rogue-druid! they get ALL the fire spells at wicked low levels, get to shapechange like mad (which is a good way to get out of an entangle or briar web right away) and become immune to poison! sign me up!
Zerovoid
First Post
Dr. Zoom said:
By 40' circle, I meant a 40' radius circle. I think of radius as being the more basic way to describe a circle.
I guess the balance is largely dependant on how often the spell can be cast. In this case, the PC's were in a forest in the winter time, so I ruled that there were plenty of small plants, grasses buried beneath the snow, and trees. Since it was the PC's going up against Belak again, and the PC's had a druid, I knew it was going to be an entangle-fest going in. I just forgot how tedius that spell can be.
I thought about just banning it, but since it is definately a low level druid's big gun, I wouldn't want to do that. Even if there are no balance issues, the spell just seemed to detract from the game. There was alot of other wackiness involved in this combat also. Silence had been cast on the party's fighter, so that he could grapple the enemy caster. The party's bard was trapped next to him in the entangle, and the player spent most of the combat staring blankly at the wall, and occasionally rolling a d20 to see if he could escape.
I'm curious that people think the necessity for vegetation is such a limitation. I would say that about 1/4 - 1/3 of encounters in games that I have played or run happen in the outdoors, since parties usually get attacked a lot while traveling.
Lord Pendragon
First Post
Zerovoid said:
You're right on the money there. It does slow down play greatly. During one battle in which our druid had caught a number of low HD devils in his entangle the DM just ruled the battle over, since eventually we'd cut them down with ranged weapons (what we were doing at the time,) and their str scores meant they weren't going anywhere. Other times, when both sides are caught in the spell, you just have to play it out.
This is definitely campaign-specific. As I wrote before, our campaign may have seen its fair share of outdoors combat, but that is easily matched by underground, city, and fortress combat.
[Edit] Just took a look at your numbers again. I'd say 1/4 is about right. That's a pretty big balancing factor, IMO. I can't imagine what my fighter/mage would do if his magic missiles were only accessible in 1/4 of the combats we entered!
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Shin Okada
Explorer
Entangle is definitely a very good spell. Still, it have some disadvantage over Web spell.
1) Need some kind of plants.
2) Even if you entangle a bunch of archers, they continue to shoot (at -2).
3) Can't be used as a cover (Web can be).
4) When a target is not entangled, he can move in his 1/2 speed. (In the web, he need str check).
Also, having wide area is not always a good thing. Sometimes, it is hard to use a spell with wide area without catching your friends.
1) Need some kind of plants.
2) Even if you entangle a bunch of archers, they continue to shoot (at -2).
3) Can't be used as a cover (Web can be).
4) When a target is not entangled, he can move in his 1/2 speed. (In the web, he need str check).
Also, having wide area is not always a good thing. Sometimes, it is hard to use a spell with wide area without catching your friends.
Black Omega
First Post
This is the main reason I don't like Web much. It's often very effective. But it's also made combats take an entire night to resolve. Tedius is the word, all right.Lord Pendragon said:
Rashak Mani
First Post
Entangle summarizing is very good outdoors and totally useless indoors. Web need surfaces to "hold"... its very limited sometimes too...
I used entangle very often and it always was a killer... except with big monsters who didnt care much.
I used entangle very often and it always was a killer... except with big monsters who didnt care much.
SnowDog
First Post
Another balancing factor for this spell (or any) is exact placement of the circles. It can be hard to place the spell such that only enemies are caught in it. In the heat of combat, can you really exactly count what spot on the ground, 50 feet away from you, will catch all the bad guys but none of your friends?
