Is grappling broke?

[Enkhidu]

Hey durath!

Grapplers are defintely fun PCs. By the way - what's Earth's Embrace?

Improved Grapple looks like its the key to your victory conditions - would that be accurate?

Also, how did you end up beating a giant's grapple check on a regular basis: from what I remember, a grapple check is basically BAB + Str bonus + size modifier, which puts giants at a significant advantage.

 

[durath]

Hi back Enkhidu

By the way - what's Earth's Embrace?

Earth's Embrace is a feat from Oriental Adventures. Basically, if you can maintain a pin on a grappled opponent you deal critical damage-but you have to hold the pin the entire round. In addition foes have a +4 to hit you becasue you are remaining perfectly motionless to perform the embrace.

This feat is great for one on one wrestling when you don't have to worry about your opponents allies.

Improved Grapple looks like its the key to your victory conditions - would that be accurate?

It certainly helps. Being able to punch my foe and start a grapple as a free action is a big bonus. However, I do not absolutely need it. If I can catch my foes flat footed(thus denying them any AoO's) I can easily start the grapple.

Also, how did you end up beating a giant's grapple check on a regular basis: from what I remember, a grapple check is basically BAB + Str bonus + size modifier, which puts giants at a significant advantage.

From my previous post: "when my PC is frenzied I have a grapple check of +27(+11 B.A.B., +11 from strength, +5 from Gloves of fearsome grip-from sword&fist) If I use my domain power from the stength domain I can get a grapple check of +32."

Take a Fire Giant for example:

+10 str, +10 B.A.B, +4 size mod for a total grapple check of +24. So against a run of the mill fire giant I have a +3 advantage. Even if I didn't have my gloves of fearsome grip I'd only be at a -2 disadvantage when I was in a frenzy.

I don't beat the tougher giants "on a regular basis" but I can hold my own. While I have won my fights against the more formidable giants they were very close, at times I was even in negative HP's and was only still going due to the "remain conscious" feat granted from my level in Frenzied Berserker.

So Enkhidu, which camp are you in anyway? Do you think grappling is broke?

 

[Enkhidu]

Is grapple broken? Not at all - the fact that everyone in the grapple is a sitting duck whether or not they're in control goes a long way toward making it balanced. I think it also does a pretty good job of making size a factor.

Sure, they're complicated, but broken? Naah.

 

[DM with a vengence]

Grappling is really only useful if your combat action is worth more than your opponents, because grappling steals both your actions. The main porblem I have with it is that most PCs aren't very good at it, and mnay monsters have truely insane graplle checks plus improved grab and the ability to use all their attacks on a grappled target. Your greatsword specialized fighter becomes almost useless when pinned with only a dagger and armor spikes to help.

So grappling is a broken NPC activity.

 

[barsoomcore]

My wife is playing an interesting grappling character. She's a monk/rogue/fighter with Improved Grapple, Earth's Embrace, Unbalancing Strike, Choke Hold and Expert Tactician. It's nasty.

WHAM! with the Unbalancing Strike, and if buddy fails his save BOOM! with the Expert Tactician sneak attack and CRACK! grapple with Earth's Embrace. If buddy makes his save then it's straight into the grapple. She can really wreck somebody's day. And she can make it all subdual damage if they need to talk.

I find grappling works great. Don't see how it's broken -- though it's sure not very well presented in the PHB, that's certain.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

There's a PC in my game who grapples whenever he's able. Those cursed armor spikes are ruining me! Fortunately, he's never seen the inside of OA...

And, yeah, he gets pounded on a lot, but if there's one thing Drunken masters don't lack its hitpoints.

 

[reapersaurus]

the fact that you have to "re-apply" the pin every round, regardless of whether the foe escaped it last round, makes it much less powerful.
"Broken" means that there's nothing much that a foe can do about it.
There's LOTS of things a foe can do vs a grappler.

Therefore, it is not broken.

 

[KnowTheToe]

It is laborous, clumsy and awkward, but not broken. It really does not seem to fit within the current D20 system very well either. I hope they put more thought into it.

 

[hammymchamham]

It seems everything is broken nowadays.

 

[Malin Genie]

On a play-by-post 'arena' I've been trying out a grappler (Monk/Drunken Master.) At 13th level I have +29 grapple - and when you're grappling you almost completely shut down unprepared spellcasters (i.e. those without stilled spells) and all melee opponents (just need to pin them, which is generally easy with +29/+26/+23/+20.) Once I hve them in a hold, I win. A specialist grappler, in a one-on-one, is one of the most effective builds out there.

Agaist monsters I'm not entirely clear on the rules (I'd be interested to get opinions on these if anyone has the answers/time to give them.)

IIRC they can use natural weapons or 'grapple' (by making grapple checks) - although I've heard the view that if they don't have Improved Grab or Constrict then they can't make grapple checks to damage, only natural attacks.

If an animal or monster does 'grapple' is the number of grapple checks they get based off BAB like for humanoids, or do they just substitute one grapple check per natural attack they would ordinarily get (making claw/claw/bite monsters much more deadly grapplers than 'big bite' monsters - not to mention multi-tentacle monsters...)

And if it 'grapples' which value does it use for damage?

e.g. An 8 HD +6 BAB bear starts a grapple with Improved Grab. On the next round, does it:

(a) Get grapple checks at +6/+1 each dealing claw damage
(b) Get two grapple checks at +6 and one at +1, the first two dealing claw damage, the last bite damage
(c) Get a grapple check (at +6) from the 'grabbing claw' and then a claw at +6 and a bite at +1 as natural attacks (not grapples.)
(d) Get two grapple checks at +6 and one at +1, each doing claw damage (as per the Improved Grab description - a successful attack deals damage as per the attaack form that started it)
(e) Other ??

And I won't even bother asking about Constrict until I sort 'basic' animal grappling out...