Is grappling broke?

[Paradoxish]

It seems everything is broken nowadays.

Yeah, I agree.

I don't think it's the fault of the rules, I think it's just the fault of players and DMs. Players, more than ever, seem determined to exploit every rule they can find. DMs, on the other hand, seem equally determined to make sure no player can ever make a powerful PC.

 

[hong]

Anyway-my PC(we used a 32 point buy)

Barbarian 1, Fighter 2, Cleric 10, Frenzied Berserker 1

A 14th level character? Right.

In any case when my PC is frenzied I have a grapple check of +27(+11 B.A.B., +11 from strength, +5 from Gloves of fearsome grip-from sword&fist) If I use my domain power from the stength domain I can get a grapple check of +32.

... once per day.

It might also make for a more meaningful comparison if you weren't bashing up critters wimpier than you.

Elder earth elemental (CR 11): BAB +16, Str bonus +11, Huge +8 = grapple check +35.

Storm giant (CR 13): BAB +14, Str bonus +14, Huge +8 = grapple check +36.

Old red dragon (CR 14): BAB +28, Str bonus +12, Gargantuan +12 = grapple check +52.

BTW, if you're trying to show that grapplers aren't broken, you're not exactly going about it the right way.

 

[SimonMoon5]

On a play-by-post 'arena' I've been trying out a grappler (Monk/Drunken Master.) At 13th level I have +29 grapple - and when you're grappling you almost completely shut down unprepared spellcasters (i.e. those without stilled spells)

Yeah, but watch out: teleport and dimension door only have V components. If you can get silence cast on you before you grapple, though, you're unstoppable.

IIRC they can use natural weapons or 'grapple' (by making grapple checks) - although I've heard the view that if they don't have Improved Grab or Constrict then they can't make grapple checks to damage, only natural attacks.

As I understand it, *anyone* can try to grapple, but the monsters with Improved Grab are most likely to do so, since it's a free action to grapple after they've already hit you. Constrict just makes it even worse, since they can do damage automatically on the same round after grappling you, after doing damage to you with their initial attack.

If an animal or monster does 'grapple' is the number of grapple checks they get based off BAB like for humanoids, or do they just substitute one grapple check per natural attack they would ordinarily get (making claw/claw/bite monsters much more deadly grapplers than 'big bite' monsters - not to mention multi-tentacle monsters...)

I'm not absolutely certain, but I believe that it is per natural attack rather than based on iterated BAB attacks, since monsters never get to use iterated BAB attacks except with real weapons.

And if it 'grapples' which value does it use for damage?

It uses the damage of the attack form that grappled.

e.g. An 8 HD +6 BAB bear starts a grapple with Improved Grab. On the next round, does it:
(e) Other ??

And I won't even bother asking about Constrict until I sort 'basic' animal grappling out...

(e) Other. As I understand it, the polar bear in your example, would get its three attacks (2 claws +13, bite +8), any of which might lead to a grab because of improved grab; to tell if it successfully grabbed, make a grapple check for each attack that hits. It's grapple modifier would be +13+4(size) = +17 for the claws or +8+4(size)=+12 for the bite. Then, on the next round, the bear can choose what to do; it might choose to make its three normal attacks on the victim, but it would probably rather make opposed grapple checks (less likely to fail) in order to do damage... possibly one of these might be a pin instead of damage. Each attack that successfully grappled on the previous round may be used to make these opposed grapple checks in order to do the damage of that attack form (bite or claw). Any attacks that did not grapple previously may only be used to make a normal attack (which might lead to that attack form successfully grappling the opponent).

Constrict just means you get to go ahead and do damage on the round you grapple them.

 

[Stalker0]

IF we are talking about NPC monsters and broken grappling, I agree that sometimes there grapple checks are insane and very hard to break out of. But hey, monsters are supposed to be challengeing, and grappling is one logical way to do it.

I don't think PC grappling is broken at all. First off, you provoke an AOO, and any damage you take you lose the grapple. Ouch!! Then if you succeed in the grapple, you do unarmed strike damage. For most PCs, that ain't high. And then you have to pin, and pin every round. And then your vulnerable to enemies as well. All in all, grappling isn't that great unless you specialize in it, or if your a monk

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

I was right. (Well, about the revisions and clarifications at least.)

4) The combat chapter has been revised to take into account what we've learned from other D20 system games and to clarify complicated combat options (such as grappling).

As stated by Andy Collins on his own message boards here.


And I still say that Grappling is Brokenly good for all of the monsters that have abilities for it in the MM.

 

[durath]

alrighty hong....

Responses to Hongs most recent post in this thread:

... once per day.

Yes, it is true he can only frenzy and use his strength domain ability once per day. However, don't forget that he can rage as well if there is a second encounter. On top of that, the grapple checks I listed before for my PC don't take into account any of his spellcasting abilites as a cleric.

If I had a couple rounds to prep before a wrestling match I could firther beef my grapple check with spells like righteous might divine power, prayer, etc. etc.

So under most circumstances this grappling specialist would have checks in the high 20's to high 30's.

It might also make for a more meaningful comparison if you weren't bashing up critters wimpier than you.

Elder earth elemental (CR 11): BAB +16, Str bonus +11, Huge +8 = grapple check +35.

Storm giant (CR 13): BAB +14, Str bonus +14, Huge +8 = grapple check +36.

Old red dragon (CR 14): BAB +28, Str bonus +12, Gargantuan +12 = grapple check +52.

First of all we'll just throw that Red Dragon example right out the window because an Old Red Dragon has a CR of 19. Perhaps you were looking at the entry for white dragons CR?

Now, you must have meant an adult red dragon, which has a CR of 14 and would thus be an appropriate challenge level for my PC. Such a dragon would have a grapple check of:

BAB +20, Str bonus +11, Size huge +8 = grapple check 39

My PC could indeed attain a grapple check of +39 so even when we compare him to critters which aren't "wimpier" than he is he still can hold his own. He would have to use all his resources and would still have only about a 50/50 chance at victory.

Against the lower CR creatures you listed he would stand a very good chance of winning indeed.

Oh yeah-the grapple check for the storm giant you listed above is off as well. It should read:

BAB +12, Str bonus +14, size huge +8=grapple check +34

BTW, if you're trying to show that grapplers aren't broken, you're not exactly going about it the right way.

OK, so I've shown that if this "grappling specialst" takes on creatures of the same CR as he has levels he has roughly a 50/50 shot to successfully win the fight.

Exactly how could you construe a 50% chance to win as broken?
On the contrary I think this thread has shown that grappling is very much not broken.

I'll agree with what's been said before that the grappling rules can be tough to learn and might seem arduous and slow if you don't use them much. My group has had lots of practice with them and when my PC is wrestling we can usually resolve his round more quickly than the spellcasters.

Try them out a bit more, you might find you like them. Not trying to be rude Hong, but it seems like you have a chip on your shoulder about grapplers or grappling in general.

Is that a misperception on my part or did you get your arse whooped by one once and are still bitter.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

broken no, poorly written yes.

I actually hope more of the special attack mechaincs switch to more grapple like systms in that they use BAB instead of the ultra lame stat checks.

Though they need a much clearer re-write in the revision, and maybe simplify it a bit.

 

[durath]

I'll second that!!!

I actually hope more of the special attack mechaincs switch to more grapple like systms in that they use BAB instead of the ultra lame stat checks.

I like this idea as well. I've always wanted to play a PC who was really good at annoying manuevers like tripping and disarming.

Considering how much trouble our group had with grappling, we got it down now but it did cause confusion more than once, I too would love to see a streamlined version of not only grappling but of special combat manuevers like trip, disarm, sunder, and bull rush.

 

[Shalewind]

Wow! I've been trying to get a thread going like this for a while!

Broken, maybe. Boring as heck. Oh yeah...I loathe a game when I have to make a grapple check (either as a game master or a player). They are not quick, nor easy, nor entertaining.

Good to see you slum in Rules forum every once in a while Falanor.

As for grappling, yes it is complex and involes an extremly large number of rolls. However, taking all rolling out of grappling would just about be equivilant to taking all rolling out of combat.

Grappling rules are needlessly complex. The Grab, Move-In, and Hold options are very difficult to understand, take up a large space in combat, and involve a lame stat-check mechanic.

Is grappling broken? I don't think it is used enough to be considered broken. Sure there are some specilized characters, but nothing that beats everything.

I think the grappling mechanic should be reworked to keep the flavor of the basic combat system. Keep the basic ideas like loss of dex and stuff, and a few more options (i.e. throw, push, move). Maybe take the system down to ONE opposed check to get rid of the god awful number of rolls that occur...

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

How about if, instead of only using 1 opposed roll, you just halved the number of rolls by assuming the defender takes 10.

That way grappling wouldn't really take any more time than the other attack actions.