Is grappling broke?

[Sir Whiskers]

In terms of game balance, it's not completely broken since, as another poster said, you do have some options - some characters more than others.

What I dislike about grappling is how it affects gameplay. Few things are more frustrating than having my character grappled, unable to get free. Yeah, I have some options, but there are times when the character is just stuck until a party member makes the time to get him free. Given the number of monsters with Improved Grab, this happens too often. Used sparingly, it's fine. When it starts happening every other game session, it's too much.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think this is more a case of improved grab being a problem. If improved grab simply removed the AoO for making a grapple attempt, it would be a well balanced feat/ability. Monsters and players would have to make a decision between taking out a pesky opponent temporarily, or causing damage, instead of the extremely powerful combo of being able to do both.

 

[durath]

If improved grab simply removed the AoO for making a grapple attempt, it would be a well balanced feat/ability. Monsters and players would have to make a decision between taking out a pesky opponent temporarily, or causing damage, instead of the extremely powerful combo of being able to do both.

Wow....good call Saeviomagy(by the way how do you pronounce that screen name?)

I like that idea of either damaging or negating the AoO a lot. That would make improved grab more like improved disarm.

Nice simple solution.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Saeviomagy is... not really a word. I was reading through unknown armies one day, and the image of a 'rage mage' seemed like a good idea (ie - he would derive magical power from causing people to lose their temper). I went and looked up the latin for rage, stuck it to the suffix for a magical art (necromancy in D&D should probably actually be called necromagy) and voila! An interesting word.

From latin pronunciation guides, it should be pronounced
S is from Sea
ae is like ai from aisle
v like v in veto
io like the ey in Eyore

then magy like magey, with the e missing.

Actually, it's probably horribly gramatically incorrect, as Saevio has a whole bunch of other forms.

 

[Brekki]

I think this is more a case of improved grab being a problem. If improved grab simply removed the AoO for making a grapple attempt, it would be a well balanced feat/ability. Monsters and players would have to make a decision between taking out a pesky opponent temporarily, or causing damage, instead of the extremely powerful combo of being able to do both.

This works both ways ... "Improved Grapple" from OA is the (N)PC version of improved grab, though not as strong.

And someone posted about the "awsome" ability of the behir grappling. Read it again .... his improved grab only works with his bite attack.

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

Read it again .... his improved grab only works with his bite attack.

That's correct, Improved Grab onlly activates for his bite attack. However, he can use his other attacks (6 claws) for grapple attacks. With those six attacks, the Behir can swallow the offending creature.

Once the creature is swallowed, the Behir's (possibly misleading) entry states that it can use cleave to get another bite attack.

 

[Brekki]

That's correct, Improved Grab onlly activates for his bite attack. However, he can use his other attacks (6 claws) for grapple attacks. With those six attacks, the Behir can swallow the offending creature.Once the creature is swallowed, the Behir's (possibly misleading) entry states that it can use cleave to get another bite attack.

No he can not. The Behir has a +10 BaB, so can only initiate two grapple checks in a round.

So it goes:
- Behir attacks with bite, hits, does damage, grapple check, wins, oppponent grappled
- Behir uses grapple check to swallow creature, gets cleave attack (this is a very special case that goes outside all known grapple rules)
- Behir has used all actions in the round

The swallow whole ability only works with the bite, not with the claws ... like DUH.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Brekki - OA feats have a different balance point to regular D&D feats. Hence the large number of feats and abilities which have never appeared in any D&D supplement, despite the fact they might be appropriate.

As a player of a warrior-style character, grappling creatures are probably my worst nightmare. They're always bigger than you, always have a higher strength than you, do more damage with natural weapons and usually have a better BAB. At one stage, I was improved grabbed by a creature whom, even while I was raging, it would require me to roll a 20, and it to roll a 1 for me to win the grapple. I think that single creature took off more than 3/4 of my hitpoints, and the only thing I could do while grabbed was stab it with a dagger. If it had been any of the party spellcasters, it would have certainly killed them.

Furthermore, once a player is grappled, they are basically screwed. The only option for a party who wants that character to survive is to kill the monster. In sunless citadel for instance, there is a creature whose purpose is supposedly to teach the party that they have to run away sometimes. While not technically a grappling creature, the abilities of the creature work out identical to a grapple, with a bit less variance. The simple fact of the matter is that the party cannot run away without losing one or more members, simply because the creature grapples.

Grappling is already an extremely effective tactic. Improved grab takes away every single penalty that it has (reduced damage, AoO etc). That's too much for a single feat, and too much for a creature ability which is handed out as willy-nilly as improved grab. Remove the ability to cause damage with the improved grab attacks, and it becomes something that the creature has to give up in order to gain.

 

[Brekki]

A monster specializing in grappling opponents is fearsome to small groups of opponents. Do not forget that while grappling it almost always is subject to sneak attacks and other dex-related effects. Also, "improved grab" is not a feat, it is a special ability that monster have or don't have, you can't "take" the ability. And as such, it is calculated in the CR of the monster. Even improved grab does not only have positive effects. The creature still has to take a -20 to the check to not lose his dex and be considered grappled himself.

Against monsters with improved grab, getting free is most often not a good option. Attacking with a light weapon is the one good thing warrior-characters can do. For casters, dimension door is the best way out

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I like how grappling works, but I wish the rules were more clear. It is an interesting way around straight bashing against AC.

The grappling bonus for size is probably too big, I would think +2 would be better than +4. Larger sized creatures usually have more HD and always get bigger Str scores. It seems like double counting to give an big bonus to the grapple check, too.

IME, if you are not a raging Barbarian the Large or Huge monster will always succeed with the grapple check. Seems a little too easy to me.