Is grappling broke?

[LokiDR]

Considering how every rule, class, spell, monster, etc is "broken", I think I'll just give up on D&D.

Hmmmm - since no one RPG system is "perfect" I guess I'll give up on RPGs.

Oh well, I guess I'll have lots of money and have more free time now.

IceBear

I agree that "broken" is used too much. But what is the average character supposed to do about a massive grappling creature? The only thing I can think of is "let the fighters get eaten while I fire from back here". That just stikes me as lame.

 

[IceBear]

I agree that "broken" is used too much. But what is the average character supposed to do about a massive grappling creature? The only thing I can think of is "let the fighters get eaten while I fire from back here". That just stikes me as lame.

But there are sooooooo many lame things. I guess I don't use monsters with Improved Grapple a lot, but when I do, I EXPECT them to grapple the PCs like I expect a medusa to turn someone to stone, or a dragon to breathe on the party, etc. It's the feature of the monster and I put it in because I want to see someone swallowed and have to fight their way to freedom.

That said, I do make sure that I expect that PC to survive so I do place those monsters with care.

Also, besides the monsters that can swallow whole, don't these improved grab monsters with their wicked grappling check have to take a -20 penalty the next round if they want to continue holding someone and not be grappled.

IceBear

 

[LokiDR]

-20? I just thought they couldn't use that attack (ie the bite they have improved grab for).

A lot of the lame things in D&D seem to be a matter of use and PC experience. If I add a medusa, the PCs can keep their eyes closed. Breath weapons are only damage, and most front line types have lots of that. Heck, even "save or die" spells have a save, and characters can pump those.

The kraken I posted earlier can threaten parties far more than it's CR 14 indicates. That is what seems harsh. The grappling rules give the creature an amazing advantage over most every other character. If I were to get more out of it (xp from a greater threat) then I wouldn't be so bothered.

Chalk it up to another element of D&D to balance. I never expected the game to be perfect after all.

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

and not be grappled.

That's the important part right there. Most of the monsters that have swallow whole and improved grab don't really care if they're grappled.

Since they can go ahead and grab and swallow the character on a full attack, it doesn't really matter if they lose their (miniscule) bonus to dexterity for the duration of their turn.

The way that WotC designed most of those monsters assumes that the DM is going to take that penalty for the monster, or at least that's my assumption since virtually no PC will ever beat the monster's grapple checks without the -20. However, with multiple attacks, the monster can just give the PC an unwinnable grapple with the only downside being the monster can only kill one PC a turn.

 

[IceBear]

Yes, that kraken is really powerful, but then that's what I thought they were supposed to be

Anyway, from what I remember of the MMII clarification on grapple (which someone pointed out is different than Sean's), if a monster with Improved Grapple has someone grappled with a limb the monster has a choice in round #2 - continue to grapple it with that limb (and obviously that limb is out of commission) but with a -20 penalty to be considered ungrappled, OR grapple it normally but then it's considered grappled (and thus, can't threaten an area, loses it's Dex bonus and can't attack anyone else)

IceBear

 

[IceBear]

That's the important part right there. Most of the monsters that have swallow whole and improved grab don't really care if they're grappled.

Since they can go ahead and grab and swallow the character on a full attack, it doesn't really matter if they lose their (miniscule) bonus to dexterity for the duration of their turn.

The way that WotC designed most of those monsters assumes that the DM is going to take that penalty for the monster, or at least that's my assumption since virtually no PC will ever beat the monster's grapple checks without the -20. However, with multiple attacks, the monster can just give the PC an unwinnable grapple with the only downside being the monster can only kill one PC a turn.

Agreed, but I honestly thought that this was what these monsters were meant for. To kill/swallow PCs. Hence why I rarely use them. Maybe the grapple checks will be lower in 3.5?

Anyway, I'm glad that this thread made me realize that D&D is a waste of my time (BTW - I'm serious here. This was the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak. Too much broken stuff. Perhaps I'll play it again when 3.5 comes out, but I doubt it).

IceBear

 

[Saepiroth]

i say comedy grappling feats

 

[Saeviomagy]

Actually, the -20 rule makes things worse, not better.

If you're grappled, your only real option is to stab your opponent with a light weapon, or try to break the grapple.

A monster taking the -20 can make multiple grapple attempts, and if it has improved grab, it loses nothing from making them.

Hence it will at least attempt to grapple with each of it's attacks, and will typically have (because of all the bonuses that a grappling creature tends to get over a grappling PC) a 50/50 chance of holding the grapple, WHILE it beats on everyone else. The kraken mentioned above would have been perfectly capable of taking -20 on something like 8 grapple attacks, with no penalty for failing, and a good likelyhood of immobilising the entire party, or at the very least every non-warrior member of it.

As for improved grab being uncommon? I count 69 creatures with it in the MM, out of some 260 creatures. That's 1/5th. As for it being factored into CR, looking at some of the stats on animals, it doesn't appear to be (number of attacks and hitdice appear to be the major influences - for instance look at the difference between a black and a brown bear - double hit dice, double CR. The black bear has no improved grab, but the brown bear has improved grab and extra leverage for it in terms of size)

 

[IceBear]

Didn't say it was uncommon - just said that I didn't commonly use them It was my opinion that big monsters with improved grab were meant to be nasty and thus, used sparingly.

Also, if the DM "roleplays" the intelligence of the monster correctly it helps. If a brown bear was fighting 4 people and it got one of them in a grapple and while it was grappling that person, the other characters managed to hurt it I'd say the bear would probably break the grapple and lash out with it's claws. It's only an animal and not going to go - "Well, if I maintain this grapple for another round I'll kill this guy and then I'm do the same to the next", but rather - "Owwww....manthing hurt me with sharp stick, hurt manthing!!!"

And, yes, the kraken would be deadly, but - "It's a kraken!!! That's what they do, and yes, they're deadly"

Your brown bear taking the -20 penalty would be a lot more reasonable

IceBear

 

[LokiDR]

Icebear, if the Kraken is that deadly, why only CR 12? A 16th level party could be destroyed by this, when it should be the other way around. Without the grappling rules, the Kraken is nasty but no worse than a 12th level party can handle.