Is grappling broke?

[IceBear]

Icebear, if the Kraken is that deadly, why only CR 12? A 16th level party could be destroyed by this, when it should be the other way around. Without the grappling rules, the Kraken is nasty but no worse than a 12th level party can handle.

Well, besides the fact that the CRs are off, I don't know. As far as I'm concerned running into a kraken was supposed to be like running into a dragon (at least it was). I know I was thrown off when I saw the CR 12 when I looked it up. See....another thing that's broken!

BTW - a 16th level fighter with 18 Strength would have even odds to escape a kraken that was taking -20 on it's grapple check.

I'm going to pick another monster from the SRD at random (as I think the kraken is not CR12).

Lillend

Large Outsider (Chaotic, Good)
Hit Dice: 7d8+14 (45 hp)
Initiative: +3 (Dex)
Speed: 20 ft., fly 70 ft. (average)
AC: 17 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +5 natural)
Attacks: Sword +11/+6 melee, tail slap +6 melee
Damage: Sword 1d8+5, tail slap 2d6+2
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, constrict 2d6+5, spells, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Poison immunity, fire resistance 20
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +8
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 18
Skills: Appraise +12, Concentration +12, Knowledge (arcana) +12, Listen +13, Perform (any ten) +14, Spellcraft +12, Wilderness Lore +17
Feats: Combat Casting, Extend Spell

Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary or covey (2-4)
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic good
Advancement: 8-10 HD (Large); 11-21 HD (Huge)

Lillends speak Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal, and Common.

Combat

Spells: A lillend casts arcane spells as a 6th-level bard. Save DC is 14 + spell level.

Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day-darkness, hallucinatory terrain, knock, and light; 1/day-charm person, speak with animals, and speak with plants. These abilities are as the spells cast by a 10th-level bard (save DC 14 + spell level).

A lillend also has the bardic music ability as a 6th-level bard.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the lillend must hit an opponent of up to Medium-size with its tail slap attack. If it gets a hold, it can constrict.

Constrict (Ex): A lillend deals 2d6+5 points of damage with a successful grapple check against opponents of up to Medium-size. This uses the entire lower portion of its body, so it cannot take any move actions when constricting, though it can still attack with its sword.

Fire Resistance (Ex): A lillend is immune to nonmagical fire and has magic fire resistance 20.

Skills: Lillends receive a +4 racial bonus to Wilderness Lore checks.

Ok....this monster appears to have a grapple check of 15. Assuming a 7th level fighter with STR16, the fighter has a grapple check of 10. If it wants to do the grapple check at -20 (so it's not considered grappled - has DEX, and can attack someone else), the fighter should break free the next round.

Another monster at random - Rast - grapple check of +6, CR 5. A 5th level fighter with STR 16 would have a grapple check of +8.

Anyway, yes, grappling is difficult ESPECIALLY against really big creatures (which is how it should be in my mind) and even more so if you aren't a fighter. I don't know if it's broken though - I think the CR of these big grappling monsters are off.

IceBear

 

[LokiDR]

A kraken, from what little I remember of 2e, was more dangerous than a dragon, but that was mostly dragons being underpowered.

As for the CR question, I say: "If it is broken, fix it." I see creatures with huge grapple checks being to powerfull, more than their CR. This means I will either increase the CR of the creature or try figure out a way keep the creature from getting out of hand with the rules. With the kraken, I see the grapple as the clear culprit. I see grapple as too strong on other creatures as well, so I think the grappling system should be revised.

Please note: every week I find something else in the game that is broken/easilly abused/lame. If I am running the game, I like to know these areas so I can avoid or fix them. As a player, I will mention the thoughts to the DM and try not use them myself. This way, I hope the game fun despite all the technically valid but broken things I could do. YMMV, and obviously does.

 

[IceBear]

A kraken, from what little I remember of 2e, was more dangerous than a dragon, but that was mostly dragons being underpowered.

As for the CR question, I say: "If it is broken, fix it." I see creatures with huge grapple checks being to powerfull, more than their CR. This means I will either increase the CR of the creature or try figure out a way keep the creature from getting out of hand with the rules. With the kraken, I see the grapple as the clear culprit. I see grapple as too strong on other creatures as well, so I think the grappling system should be revised.

Please note: every week I find something else in the game that is broken/easilly abused/lame. If I am running the game, I like to know these areas so I can avoid or fix them. As a player, I will mention the thoughts to the DM and try not use them myself. This way, I hope the game fun despite all the technically valid but broken things I could do. YMMV, and obviously does.

See, I just see the kraken's CR as being wrong. I think the grappling rules are poorly explained, and cludgy to execute, but I don't think it's too bad. Seriously, I haven't looked too closely at all the monsters with improved grab but I just picked two at random that didn't seem too bad to me. Between that, and roleplaying the intelligence of the monsters correctly (I'm under the impression that many of these monsters aren't much above animal intelligence) I'd rather just fix the CR of the monster than rewrite rules that seem ok in some instances and not in others.

BTW - with respect to your note, I feel exactly the same way. My group and I are well aware of the loopholes in the rules that could lead to cheese and do our best to avoid/fix them (actually, none of my players even want to be raised as they feel death should be more permanent - go figure ). I just haven't run into a big BALANCE problem with grappling yet (execution problems, yes, not balance). So, I don't think our mileages are that different.

IceBear

 

[LokiDR]

BTW - with respect to your note, I feel exactly the same way. My group and I are well aware of the loopholes in the rules that could lead to cheese and do our best to avoid/fix them (actually, none of my players even want to be raised as they feel death should be more permanent - go figure ). I just haven't run into a big BALANCE problem with grappling yet (execution problems, yes, not balance). So, I don't think our mileages are that different.

IceBear

I do think we have similar experiences, except I was nearly killed by said fiendish Kraken. There was nothing I could do about the grapple. It would have killed me if it had not been for fudging a fort save roll after a different wizard cast finger of death on it. This was even worse because it had SR as well as a huge fort save. I have also lost another character to a T-rex bite and swallow. I liked my one armed monk too

Sometime later tonight I will go through my MM and MMII to see if more of these creatures are dumb or not. I know the Kraken has very high int.

 

[IceBear]

I do think we have similar experiences, except I was nearly killed by said fiendish Kraken. There was nothing I could do about the grapple. It would have killed me if it had not been for fudging a fort save roll after a different wizard cast finger of death on it. This was even worse because it had SR as well as a huge fort save. I have also lost another character to a T-rex bite and swallow. I liked my one armed monk too

Sometime later tonight I will go through my MM and MMII to see if more of these creatures are dumb or not. I know the Kraken has very high int.

Agreed about the Kraken. It's intelligence, number of improved grapple attacks, and size are some of the reasons I think it's CR is off.

Now, before we go too far, the intelligence thing would only apply to creatures with constrict. The swallow whole thing is NASTY and roleplaying intelligence won't change that. I have only used one of these - an anhkeg that swallowed a gnome illusionist on it's first attack. Fortunately, the party did kill it before he "passed" on

IceBear

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

Ok, over 2 different campaigns with the same DM (who apparently loves Swallow Whole), the party has encountered 4 monsters with Swallow Whole.

The Purple Worm managed to kill 2 of five party members by swallowing them.

The Behir(1) managed to kill 1 party member of 4.

The Behir(2) managed to kill 2 party members of 4.

The Tendriculos managed to kill 0 of 4. (Here is the conversation that occurred immediately after the fight.)

Me: That plant sure was rolling bad on those opposed grapple checks.
DM: Not really, he just didn't have as good a modifier as Sherm.
Me:...
You did remember to add its size modifier to the grapple check, right.
DM:...
...
...
Crap, big monsters do get a bonus don't they!

(That's right folks, all of those party deaths occurred without the DM even adding the size modifier. And none of them were significantly outside of our CR range either.)

 

[IceBear]

Ok, over 2 different campaigns with the same DM (who apparently loves Swallow Whole), the party has encountered 4 monsters with Swallow Whole.

The Purple Worm managed to kill 2 of five party members by swallowing them.

The Behir(1) managed to kill 1 party member of 4.

The Behir(2) managed to kill 2 party members of 4.

The Tendriculos managed to kill 0 of 4. (Here is the conversation that occurred immediately after the fight.)

Me: That plant sure was rolling bad on those opposed grapple checks.
DM: Not really, he just didn't have as good a modifier as Sherm.
Me:...
You did remember to add its size modifier to the grapple check, right.
DM:...
...
...
Crap, big monsters do get a bonus don't they!

(That's right folks, all of those party deaths occurred without the DM even adding the size modifier. And none of them were significantly outside of our CR range either.)

Which is why they either need to lower the grappling bonuses due to size or raise the CR of these creatures. There is some speculation that with trip they will be adding a save, and although they said that grapple would remain much the same, perhaps they will put a save in there too.

Again, I assume that a monster with Swallow Whole will swallow someone, so if I suspect that it will drastically hurt the party, I'll tend to wait until they can handle it.

IceBear

 

[LokiDR]

Too much time

Ok, since I have too much time on my hands, I read through the SRD. Here is a synopses of the monsters I found, A-D, not including dragons:

[COLOR=red]
Total	With Improved Grab	  With Constrict
86		17		6
[/COLOR]

Ok, so improved grab isn't a huge portion of the monsters, but we knew that already. Constrict, the abilty that Icebear mentioned as the worse, comprise an even smaller group.

Here are some specifics:

[COLOR=red]
Criter		Grapple Bonus	Int	Constrict 	CR
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Animated Object	varies		-	yes		Varies
Ankheg		10		1	no		3
Assassine Vine	11		-	yes		3
Behir		23		7	no		8
Choker		2		4	yes		2
Chuul		16		10	squeeze		7
Cloaker		12		14	engulf		5
Couatl		16		17	yes		10
Darkmantle	1		2	yes		1
Belilith	27		11	no		9
Hezrou		17		14	no		14
Glabrezu 	23		16	no		15
Marilith	17		18	yes		17
Hellcat		16		10	no		7
Hamatula 	12		12	no		8
Pit Fiend	18		20	no		16
Tyrannosaurus	28		2	no		8
Dire Lion	16		2	no		5
Dire Bear	22		2	no		7
Dire Tiger	26		2	no		8
Dire Shark	25		2	no		9
[/COLOR]

Only the large creatures really have unbeatable grapple checks. But some of those are really harsh. How is an 8th level anything supposed to beat a 28 grapple check? A 9th level beat a 26? Fighters have a problem with that, arcane casters are just dead.

Your point about inteligence is well taken though, Icebear. The larger and more obscene the grapple check, the dumber the monster. That gives smart adventurers a fighting chance.

Conclusion: I think several of these monsters should have their CRs modified and/or their grapple checks reduced. Perhaps the bonus for size could go down to 2. At that point, the outsized hero with amazing strength can still throw a monster if he gets lucky.

 

[Brekki]

Only the large creatures really have unbeatable grapple checks. But some of those are really harsh. How is an 8th level anything supposed to beat a 28 grapple check? A 9th level beat a 26? Fighters have a problem with that, arcane casters are just dead.

Fighters have problems but can still use the option to attack with a light weapon. They won't do as much damage, but can take the grappling damage if their real fighters. For arcane casters ... dimension door is Verbal only, so a concentration check vs DC 24 must be ok ... 9th level caster has 12 ranks, con +2 = +14 on checks ... so 50% chance to get away.

Conclusion: I think several of these monsters should have their CRs modified and/or their grapple checks reduced. Perhaps the bonus for size could go down to 2. At that point, the outsized hero with amazing strength can still throw a monster if he gets lucky.

A hero 9th level fighter can have a base str of 20, enhanced to 24, raged to 28, which gives him a +9 (bab) + 9 (str) + 5 (gloves of fearsome grip) = +23 on his best grapple check. Even without the very special gloves the hero fighter still has 15 to 20% chance to win a grapple check. (don't have time to do the statistics now )

What I mean to say is that if a character is build to be good at grappling they can beat a lot of monsters.

 

[Brekki]

Well ... I do have some time left

A monster with a grapple check +28 vs a player with a grapple check +23. When the monster initiates a grapple check, he has 69 % chance to win. When the player initiates a grapple check, he has 28 % chance to win.

A monster with a grapple check +28 vs a player with a grapple check +18. When the monster initiates a grapple check, he has 86 % chance to win. When the player initiates a grapple check, he has 14 % chance to win.

Both these examples don't seem unbalanced to me. Grappling poses a danger for the monster too. A monster with a bit of intelligence will stop grappling the round after he's sneak attacked a few times .... Unless he's taking -20 to a grapple check he doesn't threaten any spaces, so partymembers can heal or teleport the grappled member without any danger of AoO's.