Is grappling broke?

[magnas_veritas]

Now, before we go too far, the intelligence thing would only apply to creatures with constrict. The swallow whole thing is NASTY and roleplaying intelligence won't change that.

My PC rather likes being swallowed. I've found it usually hurts less than being bitten again, I'm not being hit by their other attacks, and I can try and deal damage from the inside*. If I start to get really hurt, I can always cut my way out with my shortswords.

Brad

* - Is there anything published about attacking a creature from the inside? Beside that "cut your way out" stuff; I'd think that it'd be good strategy to try and be as unpleasant a meal as possible, hacking into its digestive track and causing massive internal injuries.

 

[Dash Dannigan]

I am of the camp that grapple poses a significant threat to the would-be adventurer but not insurmountable. I think minor adjustments should be made (as in the MMII) but on the whole it works alright and is balanced. I think the greater concern of most is whether such creatures are balanced. i.e. does your average adventurer of the CR level have a chance?

Has anyone else noticed that a relationship seems to exist between CR and Treasure for monsters? It seems that the monsters that everyone agrees the CRs are too low also tend to have double and triple standard treasure. You may want to think about this for a sec.

At times it appears for these creatures the CR is much less of a guide and more of a balancing factor. The PCs successful in defeating the creature receive less experience than the difficulty of the fight would normally warrant but also gain oodles of treasure. A Kraken for example has triple the standard treasure, for balance it CR is lower than the difficulty in fighting the beast would normally suggest.

My argument may fall on deaf ears here (primarily being a grapple thread) but I believe several may be unaware of this balance. Dms should be aware of this as the CR for such creatures is a bit whacked, but then again so is the treasure value.

 

[LokiDR]

An 8th level fighter, lots of strength. He should be able to hold his own against a CR 8. After all, the party should be able to defeat it with the loss of 20% of their resources, right?

Ok, so 8th level fighter. Base 18 str, up to 20 from levels, +4 from an item. So grapple check of 15. Not too shaby. Now he faces a Tyrannosaurus, grapple check of 28. This means that the fighter has a 13 over the monster to win. What are the odds on that? If the first round doesn't get him, the second round will.

Ok, the T-rex will swallow him and he will cut his way out. Fine, same PC vs a Dire Tiger has it sit on him most of the time, a difference of 11. Then the character gets shaken by his neck untill he is dead. Get out a weapon? I don't think you can get an item out while grappled, so you need to attack with it in the first place.

Add a level to the PC, up to a grapple check 16, and now you are facing a Belbilith. You had better roll 11 over him every time or kiss your armor goodbye. All he has to do is hit you with one of his TWO claw attaks.

Why do you want to play any character who gets anywhere near this? Treasure? Nope, not from the T-rex or Dire Tiger or even from the Belbilith. I think I have a good case get at least these three monster's CRs re-evaluated.

Note: All monsters listed above come from the letter D in the MM. My players now fear that letter.

 

[Brekki]

An 8th level fighter, lots of strength. He should be able to hold his own against a CR 8. After all, the party should be able to defeat it with the loss of 20% of their resources, right?

No he shouldn't. An 8th level character alone should be killed by a CR 8 monster. But let's play a few rounds with a party of four. Basic fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue. Fighter is the one that gets attacked/grappled. With the Tyr's lousy initiative and +20 on attack, chances are 50% that he won't do damage at all in the first round. With only 14 AC, fighter and rogue will hit (cleric and wizard are boosting/protecting), especially on their first attack, so Tyr is down to 140 HP.
So in the next round Tyr attacks/grapples/swallows the fighter, fighter from 80 to 50 HP. Tyr gets attacked by everybody but the fighter, Tyr down to 100 HP.
Round three, Tyr tries to attack/grapple another creature, misses. Fighter down to 25 HP, grabs a light weapon. Tyr gets attacked, down to 60 HP.
Round four, Tyr attacks/grapples/swallows rogue. Fighter down to 1 HP. Fighter and Rogue attack from the inside, Cleric and Wizard use blast spells from the outside, probably bringing the beast down.

So this has cost little more than 1/4 of the parties HP, little less that 1/4 of the parties spells and none of the parties one use items. None of these charaters was really boosted/hasted or otherwise specially empowered.

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

LokiDR:
Get out a weapon? I don't think you can get an item out while grappled, so you need to attack with it in the first place.

Actually, the Sage clarified a while back that a grappled character could retrieve a stowed item (including a weapon, I would assume) by winning a grapple check.

Brekki:
So this has cost little more than 1/4 of the parties HP, little less that 1/4 of the parties spells and none of the parties one use items. None of these charaters was really boosted/hasted or otherwise specially empowered.

Interesting.

So, where in any of the core books does it explain that the Acid and Crushing damage being dealt to a swallowed character immediately ceases when the swallowing creature dies?

Assuming that the damage stops as soon as the creature dies, those two swallowed PCs will survive, but what would you rate their survival chances considering that the fighter is about to pass out, the rogue doesn't have an especially good chance of cutting himself out in time, clerics are notorious for not having slashing or piercing weapons, and the only way for a wizard to deal appropriate amounts of damage in time would probably finish off the PCs in the T-rex from the overkill.

 

[Hypersmurf]

An 8th level character alone should be killed by a CR 8 monster.

An 8th level character alone is a CR 8 monster. His odds should be about 50/50.

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

No he shouldn't. An 8th level character alone should be killed by a CR 8 monster. But let's play a few rounds with a party of four.

[snip]

So this has cost little more than 1/4 of the parties HP, little less that 1/4 of the parties spells and none of the parties one use items. None of these charaters was really boosted/hasted or otherwise specially empowered.

2 characters almost dead isn't 1/4 of the party's resources.

If the characters are unlucky, the T-rex can kill a couple of them. That is not an encounter with CR equal to the party level, not by a long shot.

And an 8th level character vs a CR 8 creature does not mean the PC should lose. Try a standard fighter vs. an elephant, gray render, or dark naga and I think the fights come out a lot more even. Vs the T-rex, there is very little chance. Why are they all the same CR?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Brekki - the problem is if the monster decides to accept the -20 to his grapple checks. He still threatens, doesn't lose anything, and typically has a decent chance of taking someone out of a fight.

The aforementioned T-rex could take the -20 on grapple checks, and totally remove people from the combat for entire rounds. The thing will be matching a fighter who doesn't have a strength bonus, so imagine what happens when he targets the rogue or cleric or wizard? 50/50 or better chance of grapple, at which point the target will get one chance to escape before being swallowed, and that escape attempt takes up his go for the round.

Also, lets take a look at your numbers. Specifically things like "the t-rex won't do damage on the first round" and "the rogue will hit".

+20 to hit. That's ac 30 on an average roll (ok, 29.5). How exactly does this creature fail to deal damage on the first round? Especially when it's going to out-run most of the party (base 40 move).

Ac 14, versus a rogue with +5 BAB. That looks like a less-than-sure thing. If you're talking about boosted-for-combat-started-with-an-18, then we're looking at a +12 or so to hit, and that's being fairly generous.

Next up, the fighter needs a light slashing weapon. Without picking up an exotic weapon proficiency for it, that means sickle, handaxe and throwing axe. If that was the cleric, he'd be down to sickle. How many clerics do you know who carry a sickle? Same goes for the rogue.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Next up, the fighter needs a light slashing weapon. Without picking up an exotic weapon proficiency for it, that means sickle, handaxe and throwing axe. If that was the cleric, he'd be down to sickle. How many clerics do you know who carry a sickle? Same goes for the rogue.

Unfortunately, Swallow Whole was errata'd to "light slashing or piercing weapon".

Which I hate, personally, but anyway.

That means that daggers and shortswords are players, now, and they're a whole lot more common.

-Hyp.

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

LokiDR:

Makes sense to me. The problem is that that fighter has a very small chance of beating the T-rex. We won't mention what happens to the wizard if he is caught.

Sorry, I left out the following phrase:

[sarcasm] And that's real likely to happen.[/sarcasm]