Is Greyhawk Relevant?

[billd91]

Here's a final example of my point of view on the relevance thing.

I have no doubt that someone will correct me if I'm wrong, and even if I'm right, but I seem to recall that, apart from the RPGA LG material, the only full-frontal Greyhawk product that has been marketed by WotC (by which I mean the word "Greyhawk" appears somewhere on the cover, and within the book in a meaningful context, and things are called by their Greyhawk names) since about the year 2000 or 2001 was Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk in 2007.

nematode

There may not have been that much coming out of WotC with the Greyhawk logo, maybe, but I don't see the GH fans as being particularly confused by the situation. While the responsibility for GH material was made a bit more diffuse because of involvement of RPGA volunteers and Paizo's license for the magazines, there was certainly a lot of adventure material and other articles available. You may dismiss that as far as topics of relevance go, but I don't.

If I wanted to dismiss Greyhawk's relevance I'd point to tepid sales of their attempts to revitalize the brand starting in 1998. Of course, that was also at a transitional time for AD&D/D&D as a whole so I'm not certain that the timing did Greyhawk sales any favors.

 

[Eridanis]

It seems like some folks are starting to take this a little personally. The conversation is not off the rails yet, but it could get there quickly if we don't show each other a bit more respect while posting. Take a breath before posting, please.

 

[Philosopher]

My point is that GH simply has far too much stuff in it to resemble the stories of REH, et al. The problem is it's not one S&S author, it's *all* of them. Plus a whole bunch of other stuff.

I'm a huge fan of mess. It's just that I don't think the S&S authors, taken individually, are a very close fit for D&D/GH, because of the sheer quantity of stuff in GH. If you mush them up together, then sure, but would any of those authors have written something that was all mushed up together, to the extent that D&D is? They wouldn't because that amount and variety of monsters and magic are unnecessary in a story, liable to bewilder the typical reader. The author has to spend a lot of time explaining all the weirdness and the quantity of it breaks verisimilitude. I guess one exception would be the Desrick on Yandro, which is a great story, though it's a 'weird tale' rather than S&S.

In the Conan stories for example, Conan will typically enter a ruin or other dangerous location and fight one weird monster such as an ape-man or a Cthulhoid horror, not six different varieties of evil humanoid and a dozen other weird monsters. My point is that GH/D&D is not a good match to the typical S&S tale. It's its own genre.

Ah, I think I see your point. The way I look at it, though, is that because GH incorporates elements from all these authors, any one of them could be represented in GH. It's not necessary to include all elements into a single adventure or location. The way I play, I see the variety of monsters, classes, races, etc., not as things that are all to be used together (although they can be), but as options to choose from in crafting a particular adventure or campaign. If I want a Hyborean feel, I can have that by emphasizing those elements of GH. If I want a Lankhmarian feel, I can have that by emphasizing those elements of GH. And those elements are there, moreso than in FR and DL.

I guess I share with you the desire to keep things simple in a campaign I'm running/playing in. I just think that the setting can be messy to accommodate a variety of campaigns, and I think GH has that going for it. YMMV and all that.

The only fiction D&D closely resembles is the stuff written after D&D became popular and was explicitly influenced by it.

Well, I like to think that my campaigns are more like the earlier fiction than the later fiction. But that's my style. And I find GH fits that style well. As before, YMMV and all that.

 

[Hussar]

Beginning of the End - I have a rather strong suspicion that your "random" choices were anything but. I've done this before and every time I looked at random adventures from Dungeon or WOTC modules, it's come up with about 80% 1-3 monsters.

But, since my Dungeon mags are not in my grubby hands right now, I'll have to check this later. I could be wrong. It could easily be I just happened to grab the wrong adventures.

 

[Lord_Blacksteel]

Couple of points here:
"One of the questions I ask is why WotC would ever want to re-release Greyhawk. They might get some sales based on nostalgia, but what really sets it apart enough to draw in a new crowd?"

To this I answer "Red Box" as in new 4E Essentials Red Box. Apparently WOTC believes nostalgia carries some weight. After seeing what's coming in the essentials line I wouldn't be shocked at all if Greyhawk was the 2011 campaign world, as nostalgia seems to be the theme that's kicking off at Gen Con. Gamma World anyone?

As far as support/being dead/company screwing it up if they republish or update Greyhawk: The 4E approach is to publish 2 books about a campaign world, period. For Eberron & the Realms it was Player's Guide (Crunch)/Campaign Guide (Fluff). Dark Sun is changing it to World Book/Monster Book. Either way, there is more than enough Greyhawk material to make 2 interesting, useful books.

Mechanically, how would it be different? Make it a non-everything goes setting - trim out the newer races like Dragonborn and the PHB3 crowd, re-skin Goliaths as Half-Ogres, implement the inherent bonus options from DMG2 as standard for GH to reduce the proliferation of magic items, add some paragon paths and there you go - old school flavoring in a 4E setting.

Or go the other way, one I put on my blog a few months ago, and say everything 4th ed is in, but this Greyhawk is "the time before" - why are the races different? Because they die out later. Why is there more magic? The world is younger and magic is everywhere now, but it will fade later. Why are the gods different? Because some of them will die as well, some of them will change names, and some of them have not ascended yet - maybe Heironeous is the Paladin PC in your campaign and his epic destiny is ascension to godhood where he becomes ideal paladin god of a later age - it's Prehistoric Greyhawk - the map looks quite similar, a lot of the touchpoints are there, but it doesn't trample existing canon from the CY500-600 era.

As far as the original question of relevancy, how can it not be? There is clearly a nostalgic movement alive inside WOTC and 4E, there's an old-school movement outside of WOTC for older editions of D&D where Greyhawk features prominently(OSRIC, Swords and Wizardry, etc.), and there's a neo-Greyhawk campaign world driving the current biggest competitor to 4E over with Paizo and the Pathfinders - how can you say anything other than yes, it's very relevant in today's D&D (and offshoots) scene.

 

[Jor-El]

Be pretty cool if the Nentir Vale sourcebook that's forthcoming next year ended up placing POLand somewhere in Greyhawk....

Greyhawk might not a lot of relevance to the current D&D crowd, but you have to admit it has at least a teensy bit due to the fact that many of the gods, spells, and artifacts in 4E are still ported from that setting.

 

[Philosopher]

Couple of points here:
"One of the questions I ask is why WotC would ever want to re-release Greyhawk. They might get some sales based on nostalgia, but what really sets it apart enough to draw in a new crowd?"

To this I answer "Red Box" as in new 4E Essentials Red Box. Apparently WOTC believes nostalgia carries some weight. After seeing what's coming in the essentials line I wouldn't be shocked at all if Greyhawk was the 2011 campaign world, as nostalgia seems to be the theme that's kicking off at Gen Con. Gamma World anyone?

[pure speculation]When you put it that way, I wonder if the red box at all indicates that the next setting is Mystara. While I'd be surprised if this were the case, Mystara would certainly work perfectly well using only the Essentials red box.[/pure speculation]

 

[Dragonhelm]

Be pretty cool if the Nentir Vale sourcebook that's forthcoming next year ended up placing POLand somewhere in Greyhawk....

Greyhawk might not a lot of relevance to the current D&D crowd, but you have to admit it has at least a teensy bit due to the fact that many of the gods, spells, and artifacts in 4E are still ported from that setting.

I had considered the idea that PoL might be placed in Western Oerik.

Although my prediction for next year's campaign setting is that it will be appropriately named the Dungeons & Dragons Campaign Setting. *shrugs*

 

[Dragonhelm]

To this I answer "Red Box" as in new 4E Essentials Red Box. Apparently WOTC believes nostalgia carries some weight. After seeing what's coming in the essentials line I wouldn't be shocked at all if Greyhawk was the 2011 campaign world, as nostalgia seems to be the theme that's kicking off at Gen Con. Gamma World anyone?

You make a good point. I had not considered the new Red Box in conjunction with GH in terms of nostalgia factor.

As far as support/being dead/company screwing it up if they republish or update Greyhawk: The 4E approach is to publish 2 books about a campaign world, period. For Eberron & the Realms it was Player's Guide (Crunch)/Campaign Guide (Fluff). Dark Sun is changing it to World Book/Monster Book. Either way, there is more than enough Greyhawk material to make 2 interesting, useful books.

I agree with this. I couldn't see a prolonged product line, but two books? Sure thing folks would buy it, for the nostalgia and name factor alone.

Or go the other way, one I put on my blog a few months ago, and say everything 4th ed is in, but this Greyhawk is "the time before" - why are the races different? Because they die out later. Why is there more magic? The world is younger and magic is everywhere now, but it will fade later. Why are the gods different? Because some of them will die as well, some of them will change names, and some of them have not ascended yet - maybe Heironeous is the Paladin PC in your campaign and his epic destiny is ascension to godhood where he becomes ideal paladin god of a later age - it's Prehistoric Greyhawk - the map looks quite similar, a lot of the touchpoints are there, but it doesn't trample existing canon from the CY500-600 era.

I imagine that they would do a reboot instead, ala Dark Sun, to the era pre-Greyhawk Wars (though they might take elements from later). I'm guessing they would try to fit in 4e-isms wherever they could. So, for example, you might have longtooth shifters as Wolf Nomads and razorclaw shifters as Tiger Nomads.

It would be Greyhawk, but modernized to the current edition. In esence, given a new coat of paint.

As far as the original question of relevancy, how can it not be? There is clearly a nostalgic movement alive inside WOTC and 4E, there's an old-school movement outside of WOTC for older editions of D&D where Greyhawk features prominently(OSRIC, Swords and Wizardry, etc.), and there's a neo-Greyhawk campaign world driving the current biggest competitor to 4E over with Paizo and the Pathfinders - how can you say anything other than yes, it's very relevant in today's D&D (and offshoots) scene.

All excellent points. You've given me some glimmer of hope, as have the other posters on this thread.

Now, let's say my wild prediction of a Greyhawk reboot as the D&D Campaign Setting comes true. Points of Light not only is integrated with the setting, expanding it, but you also have a built-in theme. I don't know if this will happen or not, but I hope it is true. I would love to be as energized about GH as I am about other D&D settings.

 

[Hussar]

[pure speculation]When you put it that way, I wonder if the red box at all indicates that the next setting is Mystara. While I'd be surprised if this were the case, Mystara would certainly work perfectly well using only the Essentials red box.[/pure speculation]

Oh, man, I would LOVE this to happen. Bring back the way far out gonzo type setting - flying ships, cat people, six gun crossbows. Fantastic.

The only problem is, I think a lot of it would tread on Eberron's toes. The things that make Mystara unique have been incorporated into other settings - the generic stuff like "The Shires" and whatnot aren't really going to fly and the technomagical stuff is already in Eberron.

Me? I'd love to see Mystara come back. But, like Greyhawk, I'm not sure if there's enough "hook" there to draw people in.