Is Greyhawk Relevant?

[Hunter In Darkness]

Out of curiosity, if you've never read much about Greyhawk, how do you know that it's "bland and boring"? There's no reason you have to learn about it if you don't want to, but your judgment seems to go beyond this.

I have been playing near 20 years so have picked up things here and there, but nothing makes me want to explore the setting or it's history. I learned a bit converting the dragon AP's to a setting I liked. Some things stand out, Iggwilv,, the rain of colorless fire. But over all I found it Bland and boring. There is just nothing there that makes me want to go " I want to know more"

So yes for me the setting not relevant to in the lest.

 

[Philosopher]

Well, that seems like kinda special pleading.

Given that I was making a general claim, and not exempting anything from a general rule, in what sense is what I said special pleading?

 

[haakon1]

With all that in mind, I think Greyhawk would work best as a grimmer, grittier setting that reinforces many of the traditional D&D and Tolkien stereotypes, where magic items are rarer, characters tend to be of lower level, and the setting is otherwise frozen unless the DM and players decide to change it themselves. In some respects, I think it would work as a meat-and-potatoes setting for gamers who don't like the very high power levels of other settings.

Emphasizing the shades of grey, the lower power level, and the traditional "swords and sorcery" nature of the setting, and you might find a niche for Greyhawk that other worlds don't really fill.

And before anyone accuses me of being a crotchety old-timer, please note that I'm actually only 28 years old. I just happen to prefer the lower power levels, where +1 swords are rare and cherished treasures and being 7th level means you really stand out in a crowd. I also like being able to do what I want without having a metaplot breathing down my neck-if

Agreed. Except I'm 41.

 

[Klaus]

One thing lots of folks seem to overlook:

Greyhawk's signature NPC, Mordenkainen, is True Neutral. He's as linely to hinder the PCs as to help them, since he's devoted to keeping the Balance between Good and Evil, Law and Chaos.

This "active Neutrality" is actually a good hook for Greyhawk.

 

[Dykstrav]

Is your game posted anywhere or the after reports? I'd love to see an old greyhawk game run with modern rules and see what you do. Sooner or later our Ptolus game is gonna end, and someone else is going to have to take over. I'd like to take it to greyhawk, since its such a wide open setting....

We don't post anything about it... But I'll give you the brief rundown.

The inspiration came from a Forgotten Realms game that I was playing under the Pathfinder rules. Basically, the DM and I have been playing for decades, but the rest of the players have missed several things that we consider classic D&D tropes--a dwarf mine as a dungeon, fighting evil cults, a champagne villain that remains hidden behind the scenes, and even classic D&D monsters like owlbears, carrion crawlers, and so forth. Apparently, the "new wave" players haven't gotten to experience the same sort of old-school games that we enjoyed, and were curious as to why we dug it so much. Hence, my basic idea for the Greyhawk game.

My main idea is to make a campaign that features several D&D classics, couched in what I consider the ideal campaign setting for it. My main goal is to replicate the sort of game I enjoyed when I was new to D&D, not necessarily fidelity to the Greyhawk setting... Although it's certainly a great setting for it.

Our party includes a paladin of Heironeous who dreams of leading a grand crusade against Iuz, a "hometown boy done good" fighter that serves as a warrior for Pelor, a street urchin thief from the Free City of Greyhawk that insists that's she's a "treasure hunter", a sorcerer with the draconic bloodline that believes that Bahamut is speaking to her through her blood, and a druid from the Gnarley Forest who wants to atone for accidentally killing a sacred animal.

The campaign began in Hardby, where the characters are investigating orc raiders from the Wild Coast making camps for further raids. They battle the orcs and drive them out, then begin working for a new temple of Rao that is just getting established in Hardby. They want the characters to venture into the Cairn Hills and retrieve relics from an ancient temple site for the new temple.

From here, the plot revolves around a "plot coupon" artifact quest. The characters discover a mysterious golden tablet with celestial text engraved upon it in the undead-haunted ruins. The local priesthood of Rao has informed the party that the tablet is one of the six tablets of Aradros, allowing them to incarnate a prophesied angel into the material plane and lead a great crusade against an evil demigod. Putting two and two together, they decide that the evil demigod must refer to Iuz, so they're off in a flash to find and assemble the other tablets.

To date, they have participated in the following "classic vignettes," each of which I've designed to serve as tribute to classic tropes rather than challenge them:

• Wild orcs threatening to invade civilized lands (along the Wild Coast around Hardby).
• Undead guarding ancient treasures within ruins (in the Cairn Hills).
• An urban excursion where the character thwart a plot of the Greyhawk Thieves' Guild by braving the sewers and fighting their agents there.
• Political negotiations between various factions of aristocrats and temples in the Free City of Greyhawk.
• Dealing with an infestation of wererats and dire rats in the sewers of the Free City of Greyhawk.
• Defending a border keep from monster incursions (lizardmen attacking Mistkeep).
• Assaulting a demonic temple in the wilderness (a temple devoted to Demogorgon within the Mistmarsh).

They'll hit 4th level at the end of the next session... They've already covered a lot of ground, and to date, the players have enjoyed it immensely.

 

[Glyfair]

Before I start, let me preface this by stating I like Greyhawk. I don't believe I played in it, and have only DMed it when running Village of Hommlet and RttToEE. Still, I do note that Greyhawk does not have the same cache as it had back in the day and some comments made have lead me to some trains of thought.

Greyhawk has a VERY wide range of cultures...

Which shows something that Greyhawk tends to lack, a certain cohesiveness. To excel in todays market a setting really needs a strong theme. I can be general or specific. It might even have a couple of themes it focuses on. Greyhawk doesn't really have that.

I can see Klaus' comparisons to the classic Sword & Sorcery that Greyhawk does have. Unfortunately, it is diluted by the evolution of D&D, which doesn't do Sword & Sorcery as well as you would think. S&S tends to be about individual heroes. D&D is about the party and a group rather than individual effort.

I don't care about a PC's back story -- I'm more interested in the story made with the PC while playing the game.

This is a big reason why I like the World of Greyhawk so much -- so much of its back story was made by the original PCs while playing the game. The fact that so many of the NPCs of the setting were actual PCs in the original game, and the adventure locals in the setting were actual adventures in the original game. This is why Greyhawk is the best setting to me.

Its history wasn't just written, it was made by the DM and Players while playing the game.

Which would be a big draw for me, if I was one of that group that made the campaign. Without that personal connection, not a big deal.

That doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the stories of how certain things in the world. But that is as someone who is a fan of the setting, and not something that would draw me into the setting.

On the other hand, I played in a FRP campaign for much of the eighties. Actions of the characters did modify the setting. Finding out that we started a cult of "no-nose" orcs after our group cut the noses off a group of orcs (actually a remarkable series of coincidental critical hits during one combat) was gratifying to the players.

However, I don't see how that would be a draw to anyone other than the few dozen players who played in that campaign. It doesn't have that personal connection to others.

Plus, D&D and Greyhawk came about at the same time. Greyhawk essentially *is* D&D; D&D essentially *is* Greyhawk. No other campaign setting is this way. Not even Blackmoor.

This is a strong reason why Greyhawk resonates with me. In fact, I liked the campaign better when it was just hinted at in the D&D and early AD&D rulesbooks and modules. Once Gygax decided to organize a published form of Greyhawk, it lost some of that magic for me.

 

[ssampier]

I really don't know much about Greyhawk. I own a PDF copy of Temple of Elemental Evil and I have read awesome reviews about the early D&D modules set in Greyhawk (and some not so great reviews).

I think Erik Mona and crew did a great job of adding the Dungeon adventure paths to GH.

In the end I always thought that Oerth was left intentionally vague for DMs to add their own stuff to it without violating canon.

I wonder if modern gamers want simple, undetailed worlds (whether barebones or only what you need). From what I read online GH does differ from FR in many, many ways, but enough to attract an audience?

You can say that many gamers may buy a new Greyhawk book if it came out. You could probably say the same thing about a Pontiac Firebird or any other cool retro car; they remain niche products for a niche market.

Best to leave cool stuff in history and not mess it up with one person's revision.

 

[Hussar]

Just on the sidebar about CR: If you think that the presumption of combat numbers was larger than 1-3, take a look at pretty much every 3e published module from either WOTC or Paizo. While there are exceptions, the overwhelming majority of encounters features 1-3 opponents.

How would you make Greyhawk relavent to new gamers? That's a difficult question. Generic setting isn't going to cut it really because, well, we already have those. "It's a different flavor of generic from Forgotten Realms" is hardly a major selling point.

So, IMO, you'd need to drill down to what is important about the setting. What is the big draw? As has been mentioned, I think the idea of a G&G setting is the way to go. The only problem with this is we already have a grim and gritty setting - Dark Sun. And I'm not sure you could really out grim and gritty that.

If G&G doesn't really cut it though, why not draw on the other major element of Greyhawk - history. GH cultures are often drawn pretty directly from real world cultures. The whole idea that Oerth is a variant Earth is pretty heavily embedded into the setting. Use that. Use the idea that your inspiration for your next GH campaign is less Darren Shan or Clash of the Titans and more History Channel.

Historical fantasy is a pretty healthy genre with loads to draw on. Make it less about the monsters and flying castles and more about the cultures and whatnot. Really appeal to the world builders out there who seem to love this sort of thing.

Just my 2 cp anyway.

 

[Orius]

If I was doing Greyhawk first thing I'd do is cut the number of nations by about two thirds. There's way too much repetition, the place is far too balkanized.

Interesting ideas, but unfortunately I don't have a fire extinguisher to lend you so you can deal with that big mob with the pitchforks and torches!

This my upset some fans, but no to me it has never been relevant. I got into D&D in 91 and by then the shop never even carried Greyhawk.

I think this is another big thing. For those of us who got into D&D in the '90s, FR was the big main world, while Greyhawk was kind of in the background. I have to honestly say, given the choice to run the two of them, I'd probably pick FR. I'm simply more familiar with it. However, I think Greyhawk would probably be more fun to run.

 

[Nematode]

I think that Greyhawk fans have been justifiably confused. Even though it appeared that GH was a supported setting in the 3x era, it was more a case of expedient marketing with the implied setting and the RPGA living campaign, while the great material from the Paizo Dragon and Dungeon magazine era apparently resulted from an all too brief aberrant bubble of creative freedom.

You have to go back to the 1990s to find a Greyhawk-brand product line, and you have to go back about 20 years to find the last full sized setting treatment.

GH is like a wounded animal that was unwilling to die that managed to drag itself forward for almost the past decade. To me that’s in some way evidence of the extent of its relevance to players.

Back in 2008 Mike Mearls discussed Greyhawk in this thread

He concluded:

“Balancing the needs of the existing fans with the need to bring in new fans is probably one of the hardest things to do in game design, as 4e demonstrates. With Greyhawk, I think those difficulties are all the more daunting.”

I suspect that a GH that tried to make everyone happy would end up making no one happy, so even though I like the setting a lot, I find myself agreeing with Mike’s conclusion. But I think what's significant about his post is that it's consistent with the way that WotC has viewed GH ever since they bought it in the 90s … useful in certain respects, but not commercially relevant.

nematode