Is Hackmaster a joke?

[WizarDru]

Wow. I don't think words can describe how low I feel right now. My comments weren't called for, and I humbly apologize for everything I've said on this thread.

Sorry.

Your sentiment is appreciated. You should realize that many ENworlders have no opinion on hackmaster either way, and that, as dinkeldog mentioned, you should seek to enlighten them, rather than argue RPG metaphysics with folks not prone to change.

I have been tempted to pick up Hackmaster many times, particularly for it's 'old school' feel. I prefer 3E for it's excellent design...but that doesn't mean there isn't room in my heart for more than one system. Why haven't I picked up the game prior to this? A lack of free time to invest in more than one game.

Kenzer has always produced quality product, IMHO, so I trust that if they released hackmaster, that it would a good core engine, regardless of it's packaging.

And as the good Colonel stated, if you can't laugh at your own hobby, what can you laugh at?

 

[HellHound]

Personally, I really like the feel of HackMaster, but at the same time, I don't think I'll ever actually run a game of it.

I'm a retro-gamer at heart, I love 1e AD&D and really dislike 2e. (This is not meant as a dis, or an invitation for someone to teach me the error of my ways, it is just being mentioned so readers can understand my perspective). But I prefer 3e over the prior editions and definitely over the retro HM.

But I DO like HM, it is the PERFECT system for running CLASSIC D&D style dungeon-bashing. I LOVE classic D&D style dungeon bashing. In fact, if I was still running CyberPunk or Vampire regularly, I would be running HM as my D&D game. But since I don't currently run my other two games, D&D is now our primary house system, and therefore I'm looking for a more versatile system for the feel of the game, and thus my use of 3e / d20 instead of HackMaster for these games.

There we go.

(EDIT: As a complete aside, I am talking from experience. I own over 300 d20 books and ALL the Hackmaster books except the Wurld Domination and the newest Monster book)

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I'm truly disappointed in the course much of this thread took. Here I go and defend EN World elsewhere when it is lambasted as being full of bitter 3e players who won't tolerate discussion of other games - "EN World isn't like that!" I tirelessly proclaim; "HackMaster is well-thought-of there, and even those who don't play or like it don't flame it or its players."

Looks like I was wrong.

 

[HellHound]

I think that's a pretty harsh statement there, Colonel.

As someone who doesn't play HackMaster, but who is an ENworld board member, and who respects HackMaster, I object to being jammed into that pigeonhole.

As a total aside: the BEST thing to come out of HackMaster so far has been the revised modules. I LOVE the old modules, and HM has redone them VERY nicely.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Anyway.

After I got that out of my system, I want to echo something that WizarDru wrote: most EN Worlders probably have little opinion about HackMaster one way or the other. Some might actively dislike it, but I think they are outnumbered by those who do like it. I think the main problem with any discussion of HackMaster anywhere - or any RPG, really - is that people continually try to make qualitative comparisons between games. Instead of analyzing a game on its own merits or lack thereof, it always seems it has to degrade into "it's not as good as Game X!" or "Game X is totally better than your game!"

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I think that's a pretty harsh statement there, Colonel.

As someone who doesn't play HackMaster, but who is an ENworld board member, and who respects HackMaster, I object to being jammed into that pigeonhole.

Sorry. I wasn't trying to stereotype anyone. It just struck me as ironic, that after defending EN World so vigorously, that a discussion like this or the other thread would degenerate into a flame war. If you'll note, I was lamenting more the fact that such a flame war happened at all, not that everyone here is like that.

 

[Maggan]

Okay, so what about the GMG?

I have the HMPH, and found little of interest to me there. I have yet to look at the GMG, so maybe those of you who are HM players could tell me a little bit about the GMG, and why it would be a good buy for a 3e DM who is not going to switch games, but who borrow and steal fervently from other games?

Maggan

 

[WizarDru]

As an aside here, one thing I've noticed (having recently had a hankering to go and re-examine my old 1e rulebooks)...I didn't play 1e correctly.

What I mean is that, reviewing the books, I discovered that:

• 1) I simply ignored or never used a ton of 1e rules.
• 2)I mis-applied many of them.
• 3) Much more of 1e made it into 3E than I thought.

I guess my point is that I'm not even sure I'm qualified to properly judge AD&D/1e on a proper basis, given that at 12-years old, I clearly was skiping a lot of the material when it was too complicated for me. Which isn't to say that I didn't have fun playing it, or that we were radically wrong in how we played it...merely that Hackmaster is a better system than some might think, if they shared my misconcpetion about the rules.

Now, I should state that it's been 15 years since I've actually played 1e (longer for a pure version, with no extensive house rules). As such, a revised version based on 1e, which I suppose HM is, would be fairly welcome, to me, if it is so based.

In the interest of sparking an intelligent dialogue about what HM is, and is not, I posit the following question for those who do know the system:

How does HM proceed forth from 1e? For example, I dropped D&D during the advent of 2e, switching to GURPS, instead. Does HM include 2e elements, and if so, how many? For example, are initiative and weapon speeds done as per 1e, 2e or something different? Are kits a part of HM (something I've heard horror stories of, and would avoid if seen)?

I'm much more curious about the workings of HM than I am it's percieived superioty in the eyes of some. I don't consider GURPS superior to D&D 3E or vice-versa (or either to Talislanta, for that matter). Each is it's own animal, and needs to be considered on it's own terms and merits. If not for D&D, I'd never have played GURPS...and if not for GURPS, I might not be playing 3E right now. I will never understand how having more than one system to love could EVER be considered a bad thing....except for the drain it places on my time.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Re: Okay, so what about the GMG?

I have the HMPH, and found little of interest to me there. I have yet to look at the GMG, so maybe those of you who are HM players could tell me a little bit about the GMG, and why it would be a good buy for a 3e DM who is not going to switch games, but who borrow and steal fervently from other games?

Maggan

Personally, I like the GMG better than the PHB. The GMG has scads of stuff that can be scavenged for other games, especially D&D games. This is particularly true for those who love random generation charts, for everything from NPCs to mounts to taverns. There is also the infamous Smartass Smackdown Table, which is funny, and can be used in games that are looser and more prone to horseplay. There are massive critical hit and random encounter charts, that use a d10,000 (not as tough as you might think). Plus, it has all the random "dungeon dressing" charts from the 1e DMG. And, of course, it has magic items, from the stuff you'd see in other D&D books, to Chainmail Bikinis of Remote Eye Gouging to the Hackmaster swords. Take a gander at it if any of this sounds interesting.

 

[Numion]

Sorry. I wasn't trying to stereotype anyone. It just struck me as ironic, that after defending EN World so vigorously, that a discussion like this or the other thread would degenerate into a flame war. If you'll note, I was lamenting more the fact that such a flame war happened at all, not that everyone here is like that.

Uh oh. I really don't have strong negative feelings about any roleplaying games (except a few bad ones I paid for). It's the fans of some systems that get on my nerve. I'm again generalising here, which seems to be the heart of this whole bitterness, so I'll stop here

Personally I like the idea of humoristic game; the humor creeps into my games wether or not it is in the rulebooks to begin with. That is a good idea. It's just that 1e derivative rules are a big no-no in my group. I'm not dissing or hating or looking down on HM for that, it's just not my cup of tea.