Is it just me?

[Joshua Randall]

I'm starting to wonder if this should be merged with the Meta-Troll thread.

For teh win!

 

[Kae'Yoss]

It's not just you. Wherever people can meet and talk to each other without bein physically near the one they're talking to, a certain hostile tone is inevitable. After all, the guy can't hit you in the face if you're really obnoxious, so people get "online balls". The problem won't be solved until personal teleport-over-ip is perfected and you can beam over for a quick shouting match (in sign language)

However, as online forums go, ENWorld is virtually without equal in terms of friendly environment. Sure, we have our special cases, like every forum, but they're not quite as obnoxious as those elsewhere, and they are not nearly as numerous.

On the other hand, you can usually find several people with good suggestions, several with great insights into the problem, some people with experience with that exact same situation, and a couple of jokers to lighten the mood.

If you want to see it bad, go to the official Wizards of the Coast Message Boards and bring up a controversial topic of your choice. You'll see the flames anywhere on the northern hemisphere! I posted there for quite some time until recently, when I couldn't stand it any more. It often made me angry, and had the uncanny ability to bring out the worst of me. Plus, they have a high density of People Who Don't Bother About Spelling (I'm not talking about those for whom English is not a native language and therefore make errors. I'm talking about those who just don't give a damn, or intentionally spell things wrong to look cute)

Where was I? Why do I hold my flaming sword again? *quenches the flames and puts sword away* That's better.

What I wanted to say: If you want to discuss something, here's the place. I think that if the negative answers really outweigh the positive (or at least useful) ones, you must have brought up something really bad, like "Your favourite recipy for babies".

 

[Lanefan]

It's interesting you mention this, as our crew is right now in rules-flux...trying to tweak thigns that didn't work in our ending campaigns before starting the next ones...and there does seem to be more resistance to new ideas than I've seen in the past. And the resistance has a pattern too, to some extent, based on what edition people are most familiar with... (I'll stop there; the edition-wars moratorium is still on, I believe...)

Lanefan

 

[was]

...I don't think that there is any shortage of creativity in the gaming community. It has been my experience, however, that there appears to be some backlash against a very few, vocal members who gripe and complain about nearly every rule in the book and then brag about how they could do it better. It's not being close-minded, its just tiresome.

 

[green slime]

Are you saying we don't have enough people complaining about people trashing semi-creative (some might even say demi-creative or even non-creative) ideas?

I think it may very well just be you.

 

[was]

sorry...misread

 

[Keeper of Secrets]

Typically, I do not pay a lot of attention to the one person who comes along and passively-aggressively pokes holes in someone's idea. It comes off as rude and obnoxious (and perhaps that is what the person sometimes is aiming for).

That being said, maybe that is why I tend not to notice as much when creativity is stiffled. But as has already been posted, it seems like this is hardly a convention that is unique to 'recently' or even unique to gaming. This is what people do. I guess we could look at it as some elaborate form of attention-getting ("nobody will pay attention to me if I agree with people - but they will if I keep poking holes in ideas").

What would concern me more is if it was apparent there was less 'constructive criticism' and more 'contrary fighting.'

 

[Ipissimus]

Thank-you to the two people who said 'It's just you'. I placed a bet with my friend that someone would come back with that line, so you've just won me a copy of FCII.

No, I'm not saying that we don't have enough people complaining, nor am I sure what exactly semi-creative or demi-creative is. Creativity is about exploration, the will do do something different and see if it flies or dies. Alot of experiments die, but a few of the gems fly and it seems to me that people are far more hesitent to field a new idea than they were before.

You see, I remember the 80's, and I don't just mean DnD in whatever iteration, there was CoC, Palladium, GURPS and a whole lot of others. But players seem to me to be more open back then, more creative. It seemed to me back then that every DM had created his own monsters... I certainly threw a few of my own creations at my players rather successfully.

What happened to the monster makers?

The same applies to magic items, spells, classes and a ton of other game elements. Miraculously, to focus on DnD in particular, d20 handed us the rules set in which we no longer had to just make things up from the whole cloth (remember when 2-weapon fighting was so new it didn't have rules?) and monster creation is even easier with proper guidelines and more diversity, but how many of us still create monsters? And how many of those of us feel encouraged to try more?

And I'm not just talking about forums, I'm seeing this at my gaming table. I pulled out a Green Ronin book the other day to suggest a feat and they wouldn't even consider the idea, which was really the genesis for this post. I revealed that one of the running NPCs in the campaign uses the Unholy Warrior's Handbook (the updated Book of Fiends version) and was roundly accused of twinking! It's not like just one of the PCs couldn't beat the guiy into a bloody pulp and mangle his bits into charred chunks of meat either (he's been resurrected a few times).

In short, what I'm trying to say is that it seems to me that this community in general used to be more open-minded when it came to new ideas. I remember a time when whacking a new book on the table was greeted with cries of OOOH, SHINY! And players loved custom monsters and treasure because the stuff in the DMG and MMs was all just old. I mourn those times if they have indeed passed.

But then, I may be wrong, I didn't post this hypothesis to proclaim myself right or wrong, I did it to generate discussion on the subject. It's more than just simple trollism because I don't just see it here on the net, or even just on one particular forum.

I've run out of time but more to come soon.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Thank-you to the two people who said 'It's just you'. I placed a bet with my friend that someone would come back with that line, so you've just won me a copy of FCII.

You have victimsfriends who will do bets like these, with stakes like those? I guess you never bought a rulebook in your life, but your collection dwarves ours

No, I'm not saying that we don't have enough people complaining

You can't have enough people complaining. You can only have too many people complaining. That's true for a numbers of people complaining from 0 to infinity.

You see, I remember the 80's, and I don't just mean DnD in whatever iteration, there was CoC, Palladium, GURPS and a whole lot of others.

I think this might not be due to a lack of creativity: Back in the 80's, the RPG genry was a lot younger than now. A lot of people were trying to do something, and since there was less material on the market, less experience and knowledge of the whole thing, they had it relatively easy - more or less everything was new. Plus, the exchange of information was a lot harder.

Now, a couple of decades later, things have evolved, have been created, have established themselves, and some have not made it:

There were bad RPGs, bad Publishers, and so on, and at first, they got away with it. But eventually, word would spread, people would stop buying, and they would, at some point, stop doing anything at all.

Plus, as a lot of stuff has been done, it's harder to come up with something that hasn't been done before:

If it were 1975ish and you came up with a peculiar fantasy/sci-fi mix with Aliens and Space-Ships and Robots, yes, but also with some sort of mystical knight that had supernatural powers, special swords and a code of conduct, you'd probably be the sh*t.

If you did it today, people would ask "So you invented Star Wars? Genius! What does your "space fantasy rpg" have what Star Wars doesn't have?".


Also, if you do some RPG material that is less-than-stellar and release it today, by tomorrow the community will know, thanks to message boards like this.


For those reasons, many won't bother with creating RPG material, since they have to come up with something that isn't just a rehash of one of the many ideas floating around.

It seemed to me back then that every DM had created his own monsters... I certainly threw a few of my own creations at my players rather successfully.

What happened to the monster makers?

Well, I guess they got the Monster Manual. And MM2, 3, 4, Fiend Folio, Fiendish Codex I and II, Lords of Madness, the Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, Monsters of Faerûn, Creatures of Rokugan, Minions of Shadow, Creature Collections I to XXVI (or whatever), who-knows-how many other d20 monster books, not to mention earlier edition books and ther RPGs.

I guess the monster making back then was partly out of necessity: There wasn't nearly as much stuff around as is now.

Miraculously, to focus on DnD in particular, d20 handed us the rules set in which we no longer had to just make things up from the whole cloth (remember when 2-weapon fighting was so new it didn't have rules?) and monster creation is even easier with proper guidelines and more diversity, but how many of us still create monsters? And how many of those of us feel encouraged to try more?

This is a very good reason of why many don't try: It is a lot easier not only to create, but also to publish the stuff (since you can make your own d20 Material, sell it, and don't own Wizards a cent). This lead to a plethora of material already available, so many don't bother with making new monsters or spells or whatever - they just use what some other clever guy came up with.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Few people nowadays have too much time on their hands. If they spent hours every week creating monsters and spells, they wouldn't have any time left creating adventures for the roleplayers to play.

And I'm not just talking about forums, I'm seeing this at my gaming table. I pulled out a Green Ronin book the other day to suggest a feat and they wouldn't even consider the idea, which was really the genesis for this post.

Now this is weird. Not creating your own stuff is one thing. Strictly refusing material you haven't even looked into is another. I know many don't trust non-Wizards stuff (which is kinda funny because Wizards have been known to occasionally drop the ball themselves), but a simple look never hurt.

(By the way, what was the book, and what was the feat?)

In short, what I'm trying to say is that it seems to me that this community in general used to be more open-minded when it came to new ideas. I remember a time when whacking a new book on the table was greeted with cries of OOOH, SHINY! And players loved custom monsters and treasure because the stuff in the DMG and MMs was all just old. I mourn those times if they have indeed passed.

Let me assure you that those times aren't over. Sure, the sheer number of titles available has jaded many people to some degree, and some will always be against anything new, but there are people who are different.

I know that noone in our gaming group would refuse new material. We may not be big in creating custom mosnters and stuff, but that's mainly because there's so much stuff in all those books that we are yet to run out of new monsters to slay or new treasures to acquire.

 

[Slife]

Besides, it was Green Ronin. It's not like it was an early Mongoose product, or Serpent Kingdoms...