Is it just me?

To answer 2 questions at once: Yes, three people at the table have maxed out the relevent knowledge skills. As for seperating character knowledge from player knowledge, how on earth do you expect to enforce that? Once you know a troll will die if you set it on fire, the players aren't very well going to just lie back and have the crap kicked out of them.

Consistency is the refuge of small minds, I never said I indulged in it. But, I do see slapping a new appearance over an old monster as lazy rather than creative. Players, you see, are smart. After about 30 seconds of being shot at by disintegrating rays, they're going to get the jist and smash your crystal birdie from behind with a .50 Sorcerer Special. When the many-tentacled horror starts pulling itself back together, they're going to set it on fire like they would the Troll you based it on. Then, they're going to wonder why it didn't have fourteen attacks, and ponder on the believeability that the crystal bird had all-round vision and wasn't effected by shatter spells.

Plus, there's a lazyness factor. If you can come up with the visual of a cool-looking diamond bird with razor claws that, say, uses the sun's rays to focus heat blasts on its enemies then eats the carbon-based deposits left over from the flame afterwards (and probably lives in a desert), why can't you give it statistics yourself? It's not hard, the hardest part is deciding on a CR. And, for all your 'hard' work, you have a damn fine and memorable encounter that your PCs will absolutely LOVE. They may also feel a greater sense of achievement from solving the problem without the aid of the books.

And yes. my players do know all four monster manuals back to front, by virtue of more than 100 years of gaming experience between the five of us. Back when we were playing 1st edition, I knew almost every monster, it's basic capabilities and generally the best way to kill it. Players are smart, they read the books too and they know when you're trying to pull a fast one.
 

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Ipissimus said:
To answer 2 questions at once: Yes, three people at the table have maxed out the relevent knowledge skills. As for seperating character knowledge from player knowledge, how on earth do you expect to enforce that? Once you know a troll will die if you set it on fire, the players aren't very well going to just lie back and have the crap kicked out of them.

Assuming you make your crystal bird, with it's focused heat ray and razor claws, the player with maxed out knowledge skills should still be told all about it, unless it is totally unique. Since IC they would know even if OOC they don't, so how are you any better off?
 

*thinks this is why using Tome of Horrors for replacement monsters is way better than relying on the MM and its "brethren." *
 

Ipissimus said:
To answer 2 questions at once: Yes, three people at the table have maxed out the relevent knowledge skills. As for seperating character knowledge from player knowledge, how on earth do you expect to enforce that? Once you know a troll will die if you set it on fire, the players aren't very well going to just lie back and have the crap kicked out of them.

If it's something you're having to enforce because players won't do it themselves, then I think you already have major problems, IMNSHO. It's a roleplaying game, so when I'm running a PC, I'm playing a role. And if that role includes lacking knowledge that I as a player possess, I don't use that knowledge. If I'm playing an axe-wielding orc barbarian with no real knowledge of oozes and I encounter an ochre jelly, though I know as a player that hitting it with an axe will do no damage but will split it into two, I'd still go ahead and do it. I presume your players, in the same circumstances, would not do so?
 

Who said the old monsters are broken? I love my Beholders and my Githyanki and the Flumph and the Glabrezu and the... well, you get the idea. But if all the monsters that the players face are always the same then the game that is, strictly speaking, more like gambling then the game begins to lose variety several moments before it becomes boring.

My players may gain the knowledge of the crystal bird, but they might not be prepared for it. Something new is both a challenge and a novelty, and the players will feel like they've seen something new, that they are actually explorers in an alien wilderness.

Which is also why I love the Tome of Horrors and other such products, the more the merrier and the harder the better... but I would like to reiterate that my original question was about more than just monster creation.

So, a new question: Have you ever had an adventure idea reflexively slapped down?

I have on numerous occasions, particularly on the WOTC boards, and I find it quite depressing that otherwise good ideas are so shunned. My favourite incident in this category was an idea that I had for a BOVD style mature game that involved an antagonist hunting down the PC's old aquaintances in order to create a flesh golem that would wreak revenge upong them... not totally original but something to consider. The point of objection was about the hook that I suggested for the adventure, that of the party being called back to 'talk' with an old aquaintance who had had several body parts removed, including the hands and tongue, and was left basically paralyzed.

My detractor pointed out that, paralyzed, the victim couldn't actally speak with the adventurers. Several others and myself pointed out that there are such spells as Detect Thoughts and outright Telepathy, which he rebutted impolitely with the argument that 'no PC ever takes those spells'. Even efter I suggested alternate methods of communication, he continued to persist until I simply had to ignore him. This conversation killed the entire thread, which I found a great shame considering that there were some darn good ideas there. This isn't the one time this has happened to me or someone I know, so I'm certainly seeing a pattern emerge.

shilsen: I wouldn't call it a major problem, I'd call it being competitive. My players use SWAT-style shock tactics and consider any combat in which they recieve damage as a failure. A death in the party really does shock them, which still happens despite their caution. They use divination spells extensively along with the maxed-out knowledge skills to gain tactical advantage. In this tactic, they are helped in the fact that all four PCs are spellcasters: A Wizard/Archmage, A Cleric/Radient Servant of Pelor, a Fighter/Wizard/Eldrich Knight/Anjurant Champion and a Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster.

So, no, none of them are Orc-wielding Barbarians and most of them have an Int somewhere in the stratosphere and failing knowledge checks not something they worry about. So, I can't actually say categorically what they'd do if they failed a knowledge check because they never have...

My players love their characters are they love the game, I get regular positive feedback, so I am certainly unwilling to change anything. What they are doing is playing smart, which is what makes me more satisfied when I manage to catch them on the off-foot. The last thing I want to do is punish them for playing well, in fact I know all I'd be doing is making them angry.
 

Ipissimus said:
shilsen: I wouldn't call it a major problem, I'd call it being competitive. My players use SWAT-style shock tactics and consider any combat in which they recieve damage as a failure. A death in the party really does shock them, which still happens despite their caution. They use divination spells extensively along with the maxed-out knowledge skills to gain tactical advantage. In this tactic, they are helped in the fact that all four PCs are spellcasters: A Wizard/Archmage, A Cleric/Radient Servant of Pelor, a Fighter/Wizard/Eldrich Knight/Anjurant Champion and a Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster.

So, no, none of them are Orc-wielding Barbarians and most of them have an Int somewhere in the stratosphere and failing knowledge checks not something they worry about. So, I can't actually say categorically what they'd do if they failed a knowledge check because they never have...

My players love their characters are they love the game, I get regular positive feedback, so I am certainly unwilling to change anything. What they are doing is playing smart, which is what makes me more satisfied when I manage to catch them on the off-foot. The last thing I want to do is punish them for playing well, in fact I know all I'd be doing is making them angry.

That makes things a lot clearer. It just seemed with a lot of your earlier posts that you were completely equating challenging the PCs and challenging the players. IMC I also have a couple of PCs with high knowledge skills and I encourage them to make good use of it too, since I really enjoy having players who are playing their PCs really smart, albeit only if that's completely appropriate for the PC. Also, from the description of the party, they're definitely weak on the melee front, so I guess they have to play it smart, since it would be very easy to kick them all over the map with significantly weaker opposition.

As for your larger overall question, I seriously think you just need to ignore the naysayers. Even if a lot of other people dislike what you see as creativity, you don't need to pay attention to them. As I mentioned earlier, I think you're dead wrong about seeing the idea of using the same mechanics with different flavor as uncreative. So, while I can have a completely civil discussion with you, I completely ignore that opinion of yours and it has no effect on me and my gaming. I suggest doing the same with the people who have been bugging you.
 

Ipissimus said:
Is it just me or is there a mile-wide streak of anti-creative sentiment running through the RPG community lately?

I definitely criticize a lot :D

I have this bunch of strong pet peeves that drive my criticism:

- I hate when people bash someone's personal work with house rules, and one month later the same people are commenting how wonderful a new book that does the same thing is. For me RPGames are a benchmark for the gamer's creativity, but some gamers are very "institutional": if it comes from the mothership it's wonderful, otherwise it's "I would never play in such a game as yours". So I am glad to take the role of reminding that it's the mothership which is optional, and the gaming group which is essential.

- It's actually quite rare to have a truly innovative idea. 99% of what we see is a re-hash of existing material, a mix of two rules together, adaptation of material from previous editions, or conversion into 3ed of something taken from an outside source (e.g. a computer game). I'm not at all demanding the editors to deliver ground-breaking ideas, but at the same time it bothers me to see the word "innovative" being used for every little thing. Having feats that work like skills or skills that work like feats is not breaking new ground, it's digging the same ground over and over :p

- The most awkward additions to the games are potentially also the most unsafe for balance reasons. It doesn't happen really often, and the DM can always keep anything under control, but it's something to be aware of.

- It also bothers me that 99% of the "creative" things always involve at least a slight power up, otherwise the crowd reaction is just to discard the new rule. There is never a rule addition done to make the game more difficult, a variant "for hardcore players": it's always the other way around, but yet it is always labelled as "for power-ed up games" :lol:

Overall I actually don't think these mean really to be against creativity...
 

shilsen: it's not a matter of ignoring them personally, it's a matter of how the negativism is effecting the community. I've been playing the game a long time, and I suspect you have as well, which gives us both some strength upon which to hold our personal opinions. But what about new gamers just coming into the game who are more impressionable? Who's ideas get beaten down constantly?

My question isn't aimed at particular instances of disagreement, it's at the culture of negativism in general.

Li Shenron: I think you're getting what I'm saying, and I agree with all your points. Criticism is no good unless it is constructive, completely negative critisism is counterproductive.
 

The culture of negativism stems from the face this world has had too many well meaning people lie to their faces. :p :)

Me, I never believe a word I'm told.

Or do I? ;)
 

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