Is it OK to distribute others' OGC for free?

Henry said:
"Everything I write that I didn't get from somewhere else is closed" Product ID statement.

One of these days, someone's going to come a cropper with that sort of statement. It doesn't clearly identify which portions of the work are OGC. If you're expected to know a document of at least 100 pages in length to identify OGC, and the derivations that might come from that... nope.

Cheers!
 

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smetzger said:
I still think its moot because Kazaa makes it easier for people to post the whole product with OGC and closed content. Becuase of the prevelance of Kazaa I don't think there will ever be a comprehensive online archive of OGC.

Even setting aside legality, the quality of most of the PDFs available through p2p networks is abysmal, and most of them are not OCRed so you can't cut & paste - thus removing one of the primary advantages of the PDF format. Given that, I can see a definite use for an online archive of OGC in a format that is more user-accessible.

J
 

Psion said:
Side note here: If you refer to me...

No I was referring to the general tone of the thread as I saw not so much trying to single anyone out.

And at least as far as Cergorach is concerned I have a much better idea where he's coming from.

As for crippling OGC, anyone who knows anything about me knows its not my style to even want to do that, and it would take something major to make me want to.

Chuck
 

Numion said:
I thought we were discussing Cergorachs plan to release UA's OGC sections? But you're right about the electronic product, you should be more careful before publishing PDFs under the OGL. Maybe you shouldn't use OGL?

The thread on the UA SRD is specifically about UA. This thread is a general discussion on distributing OGC that other companies create in a free product.
 

smetzger said:
Would not work. One of the tenants of OGL is that you cannot put any further restrictions on the OGL beyond the actual OGL.

Oh understood. Viral licenses are a beautiful thing IMO. However realize that only existing OGC material is required to be kept OGC. Any completely new creations, crunch or flavor, can be released under OGC, public domain, std copyright, or any other license.

As an example, in Phil's starship designs the stats could be OGC while the actual layouts would be L-OGC. (limited OGC) In Construct Mechanus he could have his new feats declared L-OGC. That way the things that he thinks are the coolest, neatest items that are not required to be OGC and that he wants shared under certain conditions could be released under a license that works the way he wants.

Two L-OGL variants could be a non-commercial option (can use it but not charge for it) and a share-and-share-alike variant (redistributed materials should be matched by new material).

There are quite a few open software licenses for a variety of conditions. It is silly, IMO, to believe that the "print" industry will be able to survive on a single license and that these creative people should recognize the fact and *be* creative. Come up with a concept for a license, consult one of those rules-lawyers for laws, you know, lawyers, and write up a license that fits their purpose.

If you didn't see the need to create something new to scratch an itch we'd all still be using xeroxed copies of "Chainmail" fighting orcs.
 

philreed said:
And I'm always watching my own sales and the larger market. I try to be ready to adapt to changes at any time. As a very small operation -- and by producing primarily short PDFs -- I have greater flexibility than most operations. If something in particular is doing well I can quickly move in and support that. The trick is being able to read the signs and change when change is required.

Being nimble in business is astute. It would seem to be even more so in this business. As a gamer, I know I am fickle so it is probably difficult to sometimes figure out what somebody like me is going to buy next.

philreed said:
This is certainly an option. And instead of releasing stuff I'd more likely work on more profitable projects. As an example, I have two freelance writing assignments this week. One is a D20 book paying $0.04/word. One is for a Star Wars Miniatures scenario paying $0.10/word. Which type of project would you work on if your time was limited?

Well, if I had my preference...
Car Wars: Vehicle Design System - Which the Steve Jackson site says is in production. ;) Though, that could mean you finished it and SJGames is working on the production part.

Seriously though, $.10/word would be a hard thing to turn down if you have to choose which product to work on.

philreed said:
Well, as of this time I'm not going to take the option of changing my OGC declaration. But, the exact minute I see actions that devalue my work, I will make a change. And it's likely to be drastic. After all, when confronted it's natural to go all out on defense.

And thank you for such kind words. It charges me up and gives me a nice warm glow for another day of work.

I hope you don't need to do that Phil.

As for kind words...
You are putting so much stuff out there that I can't keep up. My word! I'm not sure if I am in awe, or fear. It's funny, I can read something like you mentioning a cyborg PDF you are nearing completion on. I turn around and tell my friends, all proud that I can share that with them. Two days later, they are telling me that it is released. When I go to look for it, I keep getting slapped in the head with things I missed in your product line.

It makes having a budget real hard to handle at times...
 

As a gamer I like the OGC for the following reasons:

1. It lets me post stuff to my game's website without fear of attack lawyers

2. Out of print only means until someone gets a copy near a scanner

3. Derivative works abound

Really only #1 and #3 have been factors so far but I expect #2 to keep a lot of material still in play long after the company's collapse.

As a publisher the OGC provides you the following:

1. A vocal fan-base (they have websites and stuff)

2. A larger pool of potential developers (you can peruse their websites to find good stuff)

3. Ideas. I dunno how many developers do this, but if you release a setting OGC then any works by fans in that setting continue to be OGC so you can pull them back into the main line.

4. Advertising. OGL is a popular buzzword. Being OGL means you get some fans looking at your stuff because you "get it."


To decide your OGC release you need to see where the two desires intersect. Many publishers do well with only limited OGC release. Most of them are print publishers who have less to fear full OGC release than PDF writers because print is a value-added service. PDF publishers have more to fear from OGC because these days anyone can download ghost-script and CutePDF to make a PDF file and both will print out equally well.

As a gamer, it is in my best interest to have as many resources available. An OGC product is a finite work but an author is semi-infinite because they keep producing more products. I want Phil, Vigilance, and yes, even Hong ;) around and releasing works. The community is better off for having three authors releasing a fraction of their stuff OGC than having three bitter people working in other markets.

I'll live and probably be content if most works aren't entirely OGC. I'll be far less happy should I no longer have a plentiful supply of fresh supplements.
 

BardStephenFox said:
Well, if I had my preference...
Car Wars: Vehicle Design System - Which the Steve Jackson site says is in production. ;) Though, that could mean you finished it and SJGames is working on the production part.

I still like my original concept for vehicle design in Car Wars. Using a special card deck, each player would construct a car using a standard 9-card collector sheet. The kind that go in 3-ring binders. This concept would have allowed car designs to be checked very quickly.

From that we started with a card design system that was more open. And used it for a long time until we deteremined that it would be too expensive to produce. This was a great system since it didn't require a calculator and we even had some pre-game games that you could play during vehicle design.


BardStephenFox said:
I hope you don't need to do that Phil.

As for kind words...
You are putting so much stuff out there that I can't keep up. My word! I'm not sure if I am in awe, or fear. It's funny, I can read something like you mentioning a cyborg PDF you are nearing completion on. I turn around and tell my friends, all proud that I can share that with them. Two days later, they are telling me that it is released. When I go to look for it, I keep getting slapped in the head with things I missed in your product line.

It makes having a budget real hard to handle at times...

Well, you'll be happy to hear that I'm taking next week off from writing. :) Maybe. I mean, I need to in order to give my wrist a break. But sometimes the ideas come and you've got to get them down.

I've got to get the catalog updated. I started work on an updated catalog but I'm really far behind now. That PDF catalog has really helped people see what's available -- and the free articles were enjoyed.
 

I just wanted to say that I think of all the people who should feel under seige or attack, Phil and Chuck have gotta be the most inappropriate targets I can imagine. These are two INDIVIDUALS who have contributed as much as any of the big publishers to the d20 world, turning out great materials day in and day out, being gentlemen on these boards and trying their hardest to make d20 + OGL work for all of us.

We should be applauding them and their courage to put their ideas out there, follow the license and trust us to deal generously with them. I know my games are better because of them. Go buy a couple of their products. Payday's tomorrow -- I'll be hitting RPGNow myself...

In addition, I think it's also true that what Cregorach is trying to do is also laudable and I don't think his project interferes with their efforts to make a living. I doubt we will ever get to a point where people are "SRD-ing" individual PDF products in a wholesale manner -- there's just no incentive to go to the work involved. It's great to have the various SRDs online -- I use them all the time -- heck, I CREATED the Online Modern SRD -- and they're awesome resources that make it EASIER for me to write my own products. Having Phil's entire library online isn't anything like the same thing.

I don't think from Cregorach's statements that he's looking for free stuff. Or that he's seeking to put people out of business. He wants to make the hobby healthy, and it sounds to me like he thinks MORE freely available open content will do that. He might be right. None of us know, just like we don't know long-term if publishing OGC PDFs is going to turn out to be a supportable business.

But nobody's doing anything EVIL, nobody's taking advantage of anyone else, and nobody seems to be out to get anyone else. Some people's feelings got hurt, which is understandable since this is a big deal to lots of people, and many of us have invested a lot of energy in these issues.

But honestly, I think we're all on the same side. We all want more cool stuff.

Without making Hong regurgitate.
 

Ranger REG said:
Legally, as long as you follow the terms of the Open Gaming License, you can distribute OGC for free.

Outside of that, it's a case-by-case basis. I have to think of the repercussion I might have not intended. Or if I am indeed sinister, then I have intended for that callous purpose.
[snip]

Hard to say. By default, I would respect their wishes especially if it is the product of their job. Even game designers and publishers need to get paid. If I redistribute OGC from their product for free, it would make it less and less attractive for others to get the product itself for a price.
Assuming you do it in such a way that it cuts into sales, which i think is an important caveat. Phil Reed has publicly stated that his "back list" sells almost as well as his new releases. So releasing a bunch of his OGC for free would have the very real potential of hurting his sales. Similarly, it is well known that a typical print RPG book sells better than 95% of it's total lifetime sales in the first 3 months, so releasing a bunch of that OGC 6mo after it's printed might not impact sales at all. And once the book is out of print it, by definition, can't impact sales.

But here's the real problem i have with your argument. Or, rather, it's not a problem with your argument--that is, not a flaw in the logic--but rather that i dislike the world that describes, which i think is counter to the whole spirit of open-content development. You see, i see the real virtue of open-content development as "more, quicker, & better": you get more people working on stuff, so you can get more stuff; the synergies between those many people can help the same stuff occur more quickly; and the combination of more minds and the ability to easily build on others' work leads to better stuff in the end. However, that only works with free and easy reuse. If i have to jump through hoops (social or practical) to take that cool new rule and incorporate it into my game, i may just build my own rule. But, not only will i not have saved the time by reusing, i've also potentially sacrificed compatibility. What's more, i may actively work against compatibility: i don't want to be seen as plagiarizing the person whose rule i am not, legally speaking, reusing. Now, building a new mousetrap because it's better than the old one is Good. But building a new mousetrap just because they won't let me use the existing one is Bad. As a consumer, i want a better game--i want to see it evolve and improve and expand. This means that the good OGC should flourish and spread and spawn better OGC, and the bad OGC should fall by the wayside. But what you're suggesting is that the system will work in reverse: people will produce less and less good OGC, because that is what gets reused, and they'll produce more and more bad OGC, because nobody reuses that. That is not a Good thing. We have to persuade publishers that having their OGC reused is Good--even if it cuts into their short-term sales. Because, in the long run, what keeps the hobby, and thus the market, alive is good, new content. And open-content development can facillitate this, but only if there's no disincentive to actually utilize it. Now, to be clear, i agree that we should respect the producers--as all artists--and not cannibalize their sales intentionally. I just think that there has to be a solution somewhere between "don't do it" and "the license says it's OK" that still benefits the game, and thus the consumers, in both the shortterm and the long-run.

As for distinguishing between those who earn their living off this stuff, and those who do it for fun: i think that's an artificial distinction. Good work deserves credit and respect--and that includes paying what the author asks, and not ripping them off or undercutting their sales deliberately. But the amount of credit or respect (or money) should be proportional to the value of the work, not who made it. If Joe Schmoe puts out a cool PDF for $5, and i know that he's only hoping for a dozen sales to cover the evening's work and maybe get some beer money, that doesn't justify ripping him off any more than Phil Reed, who's using his PDF sales to put bread on the table, and counts on hundreds of sales per title.

For serious game designers/publishers. Just as you have third-party software developers having access to Microsoft Windows code to make commercial Windows-compatible games, you have third-party publishers having access to the ruleset to make compatible or familiar yet playable commercial RPGs. Third parties make money off of d20 and in turn promote WotC's sale of their core rulebooks (D&D, d20 Modern, Star Wars, etc.).
That argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny. If that was what WotC wanted, they could've set up a special developers' agreement, and licensed out the rules to as many (or as few) companies as they wanted to. It could've still been without content review, thus saving them the headaches. It could've still involved a no-fee license, thus encouraging adoption. They even could've set up pseudo-viral conditions on sub-licensing. But it didn't have to be viral, or involve publicly-available free content, if that was what they wanted. Those two elements point to them wanting to encourage general reuse, by "fans" as much as "publishers", both for commercial products and for free downloads. Furthermore, there's the FAQ that WotC posted on their website right when the WotC OGL and D&D3E were new, explicitly saying that it was their intent that this material be reused by fans and publishers alike, and that they weren't worried about wholesale reproduction because they were confident they could compete on production values and extras, even if someone else had access to the same basic content.
 

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