Is it OK to distribute others' OGC for free?
- Thread starter Halivar
- Start date
barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
No argument here, but two caveats:philreed said:
1. There's no way to get everyone to agree on how much is deserved.
2. Anyone who doesn't put sufficient analysis into their business isn't going to get what they think they deserve.
I don't say these things are GOOD, but I think they're true. I don't actually think they're BAD, either. They just are. And with new technology and new models, its very very hard to reliably predict how much income is likely.
barsoomcore said:
Agree. But the community can help by not devaluing their work -- not posting all of their OGC for free.
I guess what I can't comprehend is how someone doesn't understand that posting material for free strips it of its financial value. Once something is free it begins to errode the process and do serious financial harm to future OGC.
kigmatzomat
Legend
philreed said:
Sigh. I'm probably being pedantic but I can't help it.
No one deserves anything. At all.
People should be rewarded for their work by most definitions of "fair" or "just."
In a perfect world people would always be rewarded equitably.
Our world is not perfect. Most of the "free" world's legal systems try to make the world just and fair as best they can, acknowledging the fact that not all people play fair or believe in the same definition of justice. Failure to accept this is to invite tragedy. Not all people are bad. Most people would rather things be fair and just. But there's always a few.
I will again say that people of delicate mien; fiscal or emotional; should avoid the OGL. Someone will lift your entire catalogue. Other people will download it. Few of those people will have the slightest guilt about it because when you OGC'd the work you said "here, take it and use it as you will." So they're taking and using. They won't know that they could buy it for $2 so you can eat ramen another week, they won't know if they don't that you'll go back to retail work and stop writing PDFs.
They won't know. Some might care if they knew. A lot won't.
Distributing the SRD electronically doesn't hurt WotC, SRDs of OGC works do hurt cottage PDF industries. WotC is/was a multi-million dollar company. Home PDF writers aren't.
So if what doesn't hurt WotC does hurt you, why is it implicit that what works for WotC will work for you? OGC works for WotC because the losses of PHB/DMG sales to SRDs are less than the pasting TSR took selling modules. To them it's a step up to only lose 1% instead of 2% gross revenues.
Will releasing completely OGC products offset any other losses? No? Are you willing to accept the inevitable losses that will occur when your works are turned into an SRD? Any complaints past this point will result in the same sigh and shake of the head my mother gave my brother when he touched the glowing stove element after he'd been told it would hurt him.
OK, let's nip this one in the bud (unless it's already too late):skinnydwarf said:
1: you can distribute anything you want for free, so long as it's yours, or you have permission to distribute it in teh first place--which the WotC OGL gives you WRT OGC.
2: Those long lists in the WotC OGL are exemplary, not definitive--you can make any sort of content OGC, and any sort of content PI (and leave any sort of content simply closed). With two very important exceptions:
2A: If it's derived from OGC, it has to itself be OGC.
2B: Trademarks are automatically treated like PI, or are PI--the license is a bit muddled on this.
Of course, the license doesn't define derived, and general IP law is pretty fuzzy on the matter. Now, some people have argued that if it's a rule, and it interfaces with the rules taken from the D20SRD, then it is "derived" from those rules, and must be OGC. So, it might be accurate to say that all rules in a D20 System book (D20STL or no) must be OGC. But i could create a new game and make the rules all PI, the fluff all closed, and the examples OGC, if i so chose. More importantly, since "derived" is not defined in the license, it's worth noting that the generally-accepted use of the term in IP law is pretty much exactly the opposite of what most D20 System publishers treat it as being: In IP law, a derived work is, loosely speaking, the same content in a different format. Different content in the same format isn't really addressed by conventional IP law. I.e., a new class that's designed to work with the D&D3E rules, but contains none of the rules actually published by WotC, is not, according to conventional interpretations, "derived" at all. An excellent example of a derived work, under general IP law: the LotR movies--same content, but transformed in some way (in this case, different medium, primarily).
The flaw in that argument is assuming that all those people played different systems against their wishes--that they really wanted the same rules for every setting, but those darned publishers kept coming up with new rules. The existence of the D20 System licenses, and the current state of the market, clearly shows that to be false. There may have been some people out there who, frex, loved Star Wars for RPing, but didn't like the D6 System. But, given that, if anything, the non-D20 System side of the market is stronger and more diverse now than it was 5 years ago, i think it's an oversimplification to say that switching systems was an impediment to switching games.
Of course, the fact that there's not a "minimum level of similarity" required by the D20STL sorta undermines that ideal. Quick: which is more like D&D, and can more easily be plugged into your game (in whole or in part) without modification: Spycraft, which has a D20 System logo on the cover, or Arcana Unearthed, which doesn't?
kigmatzomat
Legend
philreed - edited said:
I guess what I can't comprehend is how someone doesn't understand that by posting content as OGC that they strip the content of its sale value.
OGC materials have financial value; as advertising, community building, generating good will, probably more. OGC'd print publications have sale value; the paper, binding, and art. But the content has ceased to have sale value. Everyone who buys a MM is buying the paper, layout, art, and about six critters. The rest of the content is free.
If you don't sell anything beyond content you cannot give it away with one hand and expect to be paid in the other.
Last edited:
barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
I'm not sure that people aren't grasping that. I think it's more an issue of other kinds of value being promoted.philreed said:
Just because something has no FINANCIAL value doesn't mean it has no value whatsoever. And just because for one person the primary value of something is financial doesn't mean that other people will view it the same way.
Cergorach
The Laughing One
free != no money
ENworld is a free service but there's still money being made (to run the service). There are whole OS projects that are run by people who are paid their salary by donations.
Nothing you say is going to change the situation, it takes only one person to copy everything you published verbatim. If your a relegious person, you better pray that doesn't happen. Maybe you should concentrate on making stuff that makes us want to pay you for making more, your good at what you do. Don't start at doing something your not good at, trying to stop people from doing what they want.
Just let sleeping dogs ly, if this thread doesn't keep popping up, you should be save for atleast another year. Maybe you should look at not designating everything OGC, anything that keeps you happy. Just don't expect to force the world to change to make you happy. Of course if your as stuborn as i am, you can always try... ;-)
ENworld is a free service but there's still money being made (to run the service). There are whole OS projects that are run by people who are paid their salary by donations.
Oh we understand it allright, we just don't care. The only thing we are willing to do is support projects, we find interesting, financially. If others don't, they need to change if they want to keep getting new material. OS allows us to change how business works on a fundemental level. Remember when Microsoft didn't see Linux as the competition? Now, years later an free operating system is competing on multiple fronts with the largest business on the world, i find that amazing. You know what i also find amazing? A lot of the work was done by people who weren't paid to make it. I find it amazing that a large groupmind, across oceans and contents, was able to make something without the need for getting paid.
Nothing you say is going to change the situation, it takes only one person to copy everything you published verbatim. If your a relegious person, you better pray that doesn't happen. Maybe you should concentrate on making stuff that makes us want to pay you for making more, your good at what you do. Don't start at doing something your not good at, trying to stop people from doing what they want.
Just let sleeping dogs ly, if this thread doesn't keep popping up, you should be save for atleast another year. Maybe you should look at not designating everything OGC, anything that keeps you happy. Just don't expect to force the world to change to make you happy. Of course if your as stuborn as i am, you can always try... ;-)
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