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Pathfinder 2E Is It Time for PF2 "Essentials"?

CapnZapp

Legend
Since the level of argument has now apparently sunken to a lecture on the difference between complexity and clutter, let me assure you I do not mean to say I find PF2 subjectively not to my liking.

I find that it objectively fails to provide clear elegant simple rules solutions, instead opting for more complexity than is necessary, even to support the game on its intended level.

I have written extensively about this; feel free to peruse the other threads where I showcase the most problematic areas.
 

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Since the level of argument has now apparently sunken to a lecture on the difference between complexity and clutter, let me assure you I do not mean to say I find PF2 subjectively not to my liking.

I find that it objectively fails to provide clear elegant simple rules solutions, instead opting for more complexity than is necessary, even to support the game on its intended level.

I have written extensively about this; feel free to peruse the other threads where I showcase the most problematic areas.
Except this isn’t what objective means, so apparently you are in need of such a “lecture”. If you are defining it as objectively failing in explanation, providing “more complexity than is necessary”, that is subjective. There is no objective measurement of what is necessary...
 

The-Magic-Sword

Small Ball Archmage
You can certainly have D&D variants that are intrinsically compact to keep track of (at least for non-spellcasters). The ones I'm familiar with are all OSR products. Once you get where there's any significant variation from character to character, its going to require some kind of reference sheet, simply by consequence of the fact that all these games are firmly in the exception-based design world.
You lose a lot though, if you drop the variation from character to character you've entered a space where a lot of players and GMs can't really follow-- a lot of us actively seek out a high degree of character customization and strategic texture in our games, revolving around character ability sets. Like, we recently rejected Stars Without Number in favor of Starfinder for a space-and-lasers type experience because of it (and after we realized what HP is like in that game.) I think its great that the OSR niche exists for those that don't care about that, but I'd rather not have their viewpoint become 'the only acceptable standard' for where complexity and depth should be for games.

Pathfinder 2e does a great job in streamlining its complexity down without cutting out depth, its obviously more complex than some games, but its also way less complex than some people seem to be suggesting, it really is only marginally more complicated than 5e in my eyes. The three action system is simpler to understand than that game and while there's more to character building, its all modular and built as elegantly as can be-- that's the fundamental function of it's lego brick feat design. There's a lot of rules elements, and if you don't value in them I can see why they would be considered clutter-- but that viewpoint is mired in its own tunnel vision, because obviously different games are made for different people.

For the rest of us, those rule elements are simultaneously designed in such a way that they only matter if you take them, and they open a wealth of customization and tools you can equip a character with to do interesting things in the actual game. Its fun being able to differentiate your character using all the pieces the game gives you and its design makes it like a placid but deep and wide lake you can swim in, while the old complex systems were like these oceans where the waves would batter you even as you tried to enjoy swimming in the water. The game is balanced enough that you don't have to look at every option, you can take whatever looks fun on your glance through and the game will still work well for you, while people who like tinkering can obsess as much as they desire, and both people can play in the same campaign without it devolving into a moral issue.

By comparison 5e makes me feel like when I was growing up and got taller, and i always had to kneel in a friend's small pool, I couldn't really swim or exercise myself much in it. OSR gives its own benefits (and this is why you'll notice I'm super interested in the potential 2e has to support some of the elements of an OSR) but the systems themselves give up way too much for me to be happy with them, you know?

I think that its great that 5e exists for the people who enjoy its particular degree of complexity and depth, I think tis great that OSR exists for those who don't care for all the customization, but I'd like to keep the system that does such a great job of streamlining complexity so much, that even my players who have major issues prefer its depth and their action variety. I can't help but feel that some people find that diversity threatening, as if they need the game to fail in order to demonstrate that their preferences are valid.

Edit: for reference, this grew into more than response to you, as I'm circling back around to the essence of the thread as an attempt to spin Pathfinder 2e as failing due to its key differences from 5e.
 

Retreater

Legend
I have some examples of conditions, which I think is a good portion of the clutter I notice. I think these could be excised from the game with minimal impact.

Doomed/Wounded - both have the same effect as reducing the number of dying conditions you can have before you die. Merge those together to get a term that does the same thing.
Hidden/Undetected/Unnoticed - in addition to being synonyms in common language, they describe what is pretty much the same thing.
Clumsy/Drained/Enfeebled/Stupefied - you could merge these as general penalty to checks. Or conversely just combine the category of physically damaged to cover clumsy, drained, enfeebled (the same way stupefied combines all the mental stats).

The other thing is all the basic actions, which have full multi-paragraph descriptions to explain specifically what kind of action it is to drop an item (for example). Just make it a general "free action" category and describe it as everything you can do as free actions "and anything your GM says is should be a free action." There are 17 basic actions, 7 of which are movement-related. Make a movement action and note that anything more than a step of 5 ft can provoke an opportunity attack. (Opportunity attacks are honestly so rare that investing so much design into avoiding them seems unnecessary.)
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
You lose a lot though, if you drop the variation from character to character you've entered a space where a lot of players and GMs can't really follow-- a lot of us actively seek out a high degree of character customization and strategic texture in our games, revolving around character ability sets.

I absolutely concur. One reason I bailed out of D&D many decades ago was once you got away from spellcasters, any given member of a class was largely like any other; as I commented, barring major GM intervention the most meaningful choice a given fighter had in play was his target in a given round.

Like, we recently rejected Stars Without Number in favor of Starfinder for a space-and-lasers type experience because of it (and after we realized what HP is like in that game.) I think its great that the OSR niche exists for those that don't care about that, but I'd rather not have their viewpoint become 'the only acceptable standard' for where complexity and depth should be for games.

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that for what people want, but its not what everyone wants.

Edit: for reference, this grew into more than response to you, as I'm circling back around to the essence of the thread as an attempt to spin Pathfinder 2e as failing due to its key differences from 5e.

I figured.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Since the level of argument has now apparently sunken to a lecture on the difference between complexity and clutter, let me assure you I do not mean to say I find PF2 subjectively not to my liking.

Word choice matters. When someone uses one word, and you reference a different one to support them, the distinction is not trivial.

I find that it objectively fails to provide clear elegant simple rules solutions, instead opting for more complexity than is necessary, even to support the game on its intended level.

I have written extensively about this; feel free to peruse the other threads where I showcase the most problematic areas.

If you recall, I've seen numerous of your posts on this. I'll repeat it just in case you've ignored it before:

I don't agree with your conclusions. As long as you think your conclusion is self-evidently true from the arguments you make (which, in some cases, beg the question severely) you're going to continue being frustrated by (and pretty evidently hostile to) people who do not take your conclusions being "objectively" the case. You're not being ignored; you're being disagreed with.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
It’s almost like it’s subjective rather than just a case of objective bad game design isn’t it?

One can absolutely come to a design with specific expectations of what it is supposed to do, and in that sense the design can be "bad"; but one doesn't get to present those expectations as though they're the right and proper set and any game that doesn't fit them has failed. Even assuming those expectations are the common ones at least requires unpacking further in a way that is going to be hard to usefully do because of lack of hard data.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
I have some examples of conditions, which I think is a good portion of the clutter I notice. I think these could be excised from the game with minimal impact.

Hidden/Undetected/Unnoticed - in addition to being synonyms in common language, they describe what is pretty much the same thing.

They are somewhat synonymous in common usage, but it wouldn't be the only place a term-of-art uses things differently than in common usage. I disagree that they're pretty much the same thing. I think "I don't know something's there/I know something's there but not where/I know approximately where something is" are three fairly distinct things with important distinctions, and have often been used in prior editions just without a standard terminology and methodology for determining which one is the case.

Clumsy/Drained/Enfeebled/Stupefied - you could merge these as general penalty to checks. Or conversely just combine the category of physically damaged to cover clumsy, drained, enfeebled (the same way stupefied combines all the mental stats).

This, however, assumes that all three should be effected by everything that penalizes one of them. That's far from self-evident, and again, has hardly been routinely the case in prior editions either.
 
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payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
I have some examples of conditions, which I think is a good portion of the clutter I notice. I think these could be excised from the game with minimal impact.

Doomed/Wounded - both have the same effect as reducing the number of dying conditions you can have before you die. Merge those together to get a term that does the same thing.
Hidden/Undetected/Unnoticed - in addition to being synonyms in common language, they describe what is pretty much the same thing.
Clumsy/Drained/Enfeebled/Stupefied - you could merge these as general penalty to checks. Or conversely just combine the category of physically damaged to cover clumsy, drained, enfeebled (the same way stupefied combines all the mental stats).
That gets tricky. If you combine all physical conditions to say drained, then you need to identify the type of ability penalty. So now you have Strength drained 1, or Dexterity drained 1, etc. Pile multiples up and now you got a messy way of tracking multiple penalties. Also, a couple of these have additional penalties to HP and saves and such. Those secondary riders will be difficult to determine and track if you have to add yet another identifier. You could dispense with all the extra riders, but then monsters get real dull when they just inflict the same penalties.

As a technical writer, I could point out also how much easier this makes a digital tracking product work. I know that not every one uses digital methods in their play, but its a bonus for those who do.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
That gets tricky. If you combine all physical conditions to say drained, then you need to identify the type of ability penalty. So now you have Strength drained 1, or Dexterity drained 1, etc. Pile multiples up and now you got a messy way of tracking multiple penalties. Also, a couple of these have additional penalties to HP and saves and such. Those secondary riders will be difficult to determine and track if you have to add yet another identifier. You could dispense with all the extra riders, but then monsters get real dull when they just inflict the same penalties.

As a technical writer, I could point out also how much easier this makes a digital tracking product work. I know that not every one uses digital methods in their play, but its a bonus for those who do.

Yeah, honestly some of that stuff is basically making transparent what would otherwise need to be calculated values changing on the fly (which a few games will do, but which, honestly, a large number of people hate) because a lot of times attributes don't actually do much by themselves.
 

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