Is it WotC’s responsibility to bring people to the hobby?

[underfoot007ct]

I think the main thing for the hobby would be to have a decent D&D-brand box set similar to 1983 Red Box Basic or the Pathfinder Beginner Box on sale as an evergreen product in the same places where Monopoly and other board games are sold. I was going to say 'in toy stores', but frankly I'm not sure my local toy store even sells board games; it seems to be all plastic figurines and videogames -so that may be an issue, if even family board games as a whole are a declining market, what chance for RPGs?

Still, IME from what I've seen in my FLGSes, even when newbies come in the door looking for this strange thing called D&D, they can leave empty handed and bewildered. A good starter set that's always available is vital. Paizo do it, and kudos to them, but Pathfinder does not have the D&D brand recognition outside the hobby, and it can sound a bit off telling people "Yes, this thing called the Pathfinder Beginner Box is the D&D you're looking for!".

Just like the starter boxes made for 3.5E & 4E, IS THAT what you are saying?

 

[underfoot007ct]

4E WAS Wizards of the Coast's attempt to bring new players into the market. Lets look at all the things they did:

Removed finicky systems, subsystems, sub-subsystems, corner cases, walls of text, etc.

Every class played right out of the box. Yes, more classes added more variety, new material added new stuff you could do, but you could make a Fighter using PHB 1 and you'd be just fine.

We're playing in a fantasy game!

World of Warcraft, Everquest, Final Fantasy, etc. People have come to expect fantastic settings to have fantastic races. DnD's races... lacked. Flip open the PHB and you have: humans, humans with pointy ears, short humans, short humans take 2, short humans take 3 (with beards) and half-orcs (who are humans with little tusks).

Yeah, gently caress that noise. You can play a Dragon! A half-demon! Their mystic elves had all black eyes and could teleport through the feywild!

We're big damn HEROES!

You ever see Cloud stop to rest for 2 weeks because of a few injuries? Does your character in WoW stop to rest? Does any of your fantasy heroes ever die to a goblin arrow? No!

4E was goddamn HEROIC. Level 1? Okay. You're just starting out and guess what? You kick ass and take names. And it's only getting better from here.

Powers

You want to know what turns off players of other games from PnP rpgs? Endless table lookup. Rules arguments. Wondering how things work.

Powers are self-contained. They do exactly what they say. No "I get 4 level 1 spell slots? What can I do with those?" Nope. You have powers. You use them.

Game systems

You like boss fights? Why can't DnD do boss fights? You dislike measuring in 5 ft increments (or live in ANY OTHER COUNTRY THAN THE US)? Here, spaces. Neutral towards metric/english, perfectly comprehensible, and diagonals measure easily. You want to defend people? You can defend people (and in a much more interesting manner than traditional 'aggro' mechanics). You play video games? Good on you. DnD 4E can do anything your video game can do, do it cooler, do it more interesting, and screw the stupid grinding everyone hates.



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Here we are now, people. Don't start whining WotC doesn't do enough to bring in new players when you can click over to Penny Arcade and SEE how DnD 4E did everything you wanted to happen with their edition. And you killed it.

Did WOTC kick you dog as well?

Silly me, I thought they discouraged edition warring around these parts.

 

[S'mon]

Just like the starter boxes made for 3.5E & 4E, IS THAT what you are saying?

No, it needs to be a complete game, and not feel like a pay-to-preview. The Pathfinder Beginner Box for instance goes to 5th level and I've run 10 3-5 hour sessions with it so far, without nearly exhausting its potential. There's really no comparison between the PBB and any WoTC starter set. I had high hopes for the 4e Red Box; the reality was a crushing disappointment. The 3.0 starter box I have is no better.

 

[Desdichado]

No, it needs to be a complete game, and not feel like a pay-to-preview. The Pathfinder Beginner Box for instance goes to 5th level and I've run 10 3-5 hour sessions with it so far, without nearly exhausting its potential. There's really no comparison between the PBB and any WoTC starter set. I had high hopes for the 4e Red Box; the reality was a crushing disappointment. The 3.0 starter box I have is no better.

But isn't that exactly how the old Moldvay or Mentzer boxed sets used to be? How many levels could you play with the red box? I recall as a kid being flabbergasted that this game called "Dungeons & Dragons" didn't even have dragons in the basic game, for instance.

I don't disagree with what I think you mean with an evergreen beginner set, but I do disagree that the old boxed sets of yore were any better than the current ones. If anything, the problem is that WotC has been unable to really see past the paradigm of past boxed sets to what really needs to be done.

 

[Umbran]

Did WOTC kick you dog as well?

Silly me, I thought they discouraged edition warring around these parts.

Yes. We also discourage intentional antagonism. So, you know, maybe you should look to yourself there.

Folks, let me make this clear - we expect everyone to treat each other and their opinions with respect. If you can't handle that, bow out of this conversation now, please. I've had enough babysitting this thread, and will just start booting people from it without further warning, explanation, or discussion.

I hope that's clear. Thanks, all, for your time and polite contributions.

 

[Console Cowboy]

If it went unnoticed.

At its core a lack of respect will be the death of the hobby. Lack of self-respect. Lack of respect given to players. Lack of respect for the Game Master. Lack of respect (or appreciation for) the differences in media between table and monitor. Lack of respect for the RPGs themselves and their creators in general.

^this^

About Burger King and my analogy, the source of the phrase I coined:
http://adage.com/article/al-ries/exciting-burger-king-s-menu-expansion/234145/

 

[S'mon]

But isn't that exactly how the old Moldvay or Mentzer boxed sets used to be? How many levels could you play with the red box? I recall as a kid being flabbergasted that this game called "Dungeons & Dragons" didn't even have dragons in the basic game, for instance.

Moldvay & Mentzer Basic only went to 3rd level, but they did include a full suite of dragons! From the beatable 5hd White to the you're-gonna-die 10 hd Red.

I'd say 3 levels was the absolute minimum for a 'real game'; they had their reasons but the Pathfinder BB is far more complete, with 5 levels and full rules for adventuring in wilderness (various terrain types) and cities, not just in dungeons. It really gets everything that's best about D&D into that one amazing box.

 

[Ulrick]

The really neat thing about those basic boxed sets, from a beginning player standpoint, you'd didn't need to read the whole thing. Only the DM had to really know the rules, but you only had to keep track the information relevant to your character. The rulebooks didn't surpass 96 pages, and the player didn't have to read anywhere near that amount.

First time playing D&D? Here, play a fighter. Every group needs an extra fighter or two.

The fighter class was a great class in pre-3e D&D, because it gave newcomers some grounding in what D&D was all about without inundating them with extra abilities and so forth. It was also a great class for the casual gamer, who didn't want to invest a lot of time in mastering the rules.

 

[GreyICE]

The really neat thing about those basic boxed sets, from a beginning player standpoint, you'd didn't need to read the whole thing. Only the DM had to really know the rules, but you only had to keep track the information relevant to your character. The rulebooks didn't surpass 96 pages, and the player didn't have to read anywhere near that amount.

First time playing D&D? Here, play a fighter. Every group needs an extra fighter or two.

The fighter class was a great class in pre-3e D&D, because it gave newcomers some grounding in what D&D was all about without inundating them with extra abilities and so forth. It was also a great class for the casual gamer, who didn't want to invest a lot of time in mastering the rules.

Yeah, there needs to be a casual, streamlined class or three in each iteration of D&D for exactly that purpose.

Catering to different styles of player in the same group is something that hasn't been done since AD&D.

 

[Rogue Agent]

Given that the sales of 4E were hardly anemic (even with 5E announced, the system years old, and the online tools giving you most of the benefits of the books, it's the second best selling system) I think it's fair to say that both 3E and 4E had fans and detractors.

Exactly. And that's why 4E was a failed edition.

Any new edition of a game is going to pick up some percentage of the current market. But when you lose at least half your customers, I find it impossible to describe that as anything other than a failure.

But isn't that exactly how the old Moldvay or Mentzer boxed sets used to be? How many levels could you play with the red box?

The key difference is not how many levels the box covered, its what you did with the box once you're done with it.

If you're playing the BECMI Basic Set and you buy the Expert Set, what do you do with the Basic Set? You keep using it.

If you're using the 4E Starter Set and you buy either the core rulebooks or the Essentials rulebooks, what do you do with the Starter Set? You stick it on a shelf and you stop using it.

The distinction in usage here is really huge: If you're new player being introduced to an existing group, you're going to want to pick up the same rulebooks everyone else does. If it's a BECMI group, that means picking up the Basic Set; if it's a 4E group, you're not going to touch the 4E Starter Set.

If you're a new player being introduced to the game by buying a product, the Starter Set ends up being a false start: It's a disposable preview of some other game that you should have bought instead.

Take Arkham Horror, for example: If FFG marketed a version of the game which only included 6 investigators and 1 Ancient One as an "Arkham Horror: Starter Set" I would expect that product to crash and burn. Why would you ever buy the Starter Set instead of just spending an extra $10 on the full thing? OTOH, FFG does great business selling expansions to the core game.