D&D 5E Is Kratos a good representative of a high-level martial?

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Well they were posted on EnWorld no long ago: Kratos god of war ;)
Oh, yeah, I remember that! I didn't realize it was the same character. Definitely not what a high-level fighter (or barbarian) can do in 5E, but perhaps an epic level 30 fighter... 🤷‍♂️

I know it isn't a game I would play and I certainly wouldn't want to play in a D&D game at that sort of power level--just isn't my thing.
 

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I would argue that it isn't what high level martials get to do.

Let's compare the same fighter at different levels.

Let's assume this fighter rolled an 18 and therefore starts with 20 STR (if you'd rather, we could instead assume a 6th level fighter that used the array and put their ASIs into STR).

At 20th level this fighter also has a 20 STR.

The 1st level fighter can lift 600 lbs. The 20th level fighter can also lift 600 lbs.

The 1st level fighter can make a running jump of 20 ft. The 20th level fighter can make a running jump of 20 ft.

Of course, the DM can allow the fighter to exceed those limits with an athletics check! Well, the 1st level fighter has an athletics bonus of +7, while the 20th level fighter has a whopping +11.

The 20th level fighter can take more damage than the 1st level fighter, and can deal more damage than the 1st level fighter. Not Kratos levels of damage, IMO (admittedly, I haven't played the games, though I have watched some gameplay). That's about it.
I very specifically included non-5e editions.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
Yeah the belief that if they aren’t explicitly ‘magicial’ that they’re implicitly limited by the mundane world, there doesn’t seem to be an allowance for the idea that someone who’s part of a fantasy world can do fantastical things without magic or some sort of other ‘justification’ for their feats (being a demigod, the chosen one, magically biologically enhanced, ect...)
A lot of people seem to think that 'magic' is the same as 'fantasy'.
 
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CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
A lot of people seem to think that 'magic' is the same as 'fantasy'.
Personally I see it as a ‘magic is fantasy but fantasy is not specifically magic’ situation, just let there be people who can do incredible feats because they trained their body real good, nothing supernatural just plain and simple hard work and mastered skills.
 


Zardnaar

Legend
The mundane fighter eg Champion shouldn't have magical abilities. They could be drastically buffed.

Not opposed to supernatural fighters just make it subclass specific.

May have been playing Assassin's Creed Odyssey.
 

I'm solidly in the grognard/eww anime camp, and yet I still think there's a lot they could do that wouldn't offend my sensibilities. For example, I'll let you get away with a lot if it's a passive or subdued effect (dragon breath? ha, my high-level fighter just raises his shield!). The paladin saving throw aura is one of the best abilities in the game, and it wouldn't have fazed me if they'd given it to battle masters instead. Cool, powerful, feels great, makes enough sense for me. Make Indomitable legendary resistance. Let them cleave through hordes and scare the naughty word out of weak-minded fools just by touching their sword hilt. There's a lot they could do without getting into the mountain-rasslin' stuff.
 

To be a "good" representative of a high-level 5E martial he would need to have at least some spells.
The fact that you are serious about this makes me extremely sad. Because this is precisely equivalent to saying, "To be a 'good' representative of a high-level 5e martial he would have to stop being a martial character."

To cast spells using your own mojo is to stop being a martial character. Period. That's why Paladins and Eldritch Knights aren't martial characters anymore.
 

Yeah the belief that if they aren’t explicitly ‘magicial’ that they’re implicitly limited by the mundane world, there doesn’t seem to be an allowance for the idea that someone who’s part of a fantasy world can do fantastical things without magic or some sort of other ‘justification’ for their feats (being a demigod, the chosen one, magically biologically enhanced, ect...)
Unfortunately, that belief is what the D&D community at large has settled on, despite it being the direct cause of the never-ending "caster supremacy" slugfest. Indeed, most martial characters in D&D are limited to less than the mundane world, because there are things Olympic athletes or highly trained archers can do that martial characters cannot...at least, not without casting a spell to do so.

Good luck convincing anyone to re-evaluate it. I genuinely mean that, too, not just as a jaded sarcastic thing. If you manage to actually find an argument that can get past the tired cliches, non-sequiturs, and frustrating pseudo-responses, I would literally and physically jump for joy. I am, unfortunately, completely convinced that arguments of this kind won't take hold for at least another decade and possibly longer, when they start eyeing 6e.
 


Fanaelialae

Legend
I very specifically included non-5e editions.
I never suggested otherwise.

My response focused specifically on 5e, because that's what interests me the most at present. It's not like there's any likelihood of going back to earlier editions and fixing martials there, but with the revision I hold out at least a sliver of hope that improvement for martials will be implemented in the 5e revision. Hence, why I focused on 5e.

Even if some other editions came closer to the mark, it isn't as though we can easily mix and match those qualities into 5e to solve the problem.

IMO, the issue was quite present in Basic, 1e, and 2e.

3e did actually go a way's in addressing it, but the solution wasn't great. A fighter got 2 skill points (1 if you dumped Intelligence) and skills were very niche. You could eventually become a legendary jumper, but it might be at the expense of something more useful like climbing. 3e fighters had real potential to be awesome, but often fell apart in execution. Plus, casters were incredibly strong in this edition, so raising martials up didn't narrow the gap nearly as much as it would have in any other edition.

4e is probably the only edition that actually did this well, IMO. Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies meant that everyone, including fighters, was guaranteed the ability to do awesome things at high levels.
 


Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Yes and No

Yes
Kratos fights like a classic D&D martial. Tough sack of HP with a goldbag of magical weapons and armor with high damage, and weapon accuracy.

No
Kratos is stronger, faster, and more agile than a D&D PC due to being a demigod/god. His STR, DEX,and CON are all above 24. He can light more than a humaniod and jump higher than one.
 

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