Level Up (A5E) Is Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition compatible with D&D 5E?

[Umbran]

I’ve given two criticisms and one observation tied to them, and one isn’t especially a criticism.

Mod Note:
1) Please review the Terms and rules. Do not argue with moderation in-thread. If you feel a need to discuss, you can take it to a private message. You're new, so we can let it slide this time.

2) You've commented on the abilities and testing a dozen times across a couple of threads. It is coming off to your peers as a bit obsessed and aggressive. Please take the advice to move on to some other line of discussion.

 

[Rune]

Your hatred of PtA/FB is clear because you started this account just to complain about it. Maybe you're brand new to ENWorld; maybe you've been here a while but decided to use an alt account so we wouldn't know who you are. Since you hate PtA/FB, then remove it from your A5e game... assuming you ever actually play the game.

To be fair, there are probably a fair number of people new to EN World who are only interested in talking about Level Up rules, because in the Level Up kickstarter comment section Morrus is directing such people here or to the Discord (wherever that is). And, for what it’s worth, Rant has said multiple times in this very thread that they like parts of Level Up (specifically calling out the monster design). So, even if they did join with the specific intent of complaining about those rules, it hasn’t all been that.

And you won't even try the game for yourself and see how it plays in reality.

Again, to be fair, Rant has made it clear that that can’t happen, because their players will not buy in. Even if Rant personally accepted the assertions that it all works fine, they still couldn’t find out through play. Assuming, that is, that the arguments to convince the players are no more successful than arguments to convince Rant have been. Which seems likely.

But carry on. I have no dog in the larger philosophical fight. My own compatibility concerns are personalized to my gaming groups (and largely revolve around how much work it will be to leave certain things out).

 

[Rant]

Seems like people are reacting less to your "simple complaints," and more to your relentless badgering.

It’s odd to equate reiterating complaints on a product with personal badgering. Some iPhone owners don’t like that headphone jacks were removed. Complaining about that doesn’t typically get owners of newer model iPhones up in arms to defend the decision.
Complaining about flaws in a product isn’t a personal attack on people who own that product. Thats not badgering product owners, it’s a critique of a product itself.

 

[Rant]

Mod Note:
1) Please review the Terms and rules. Do not argue with moderation in-thread. If you feel a need to discuss, you can take it to a private message. You're new, so we can let it slide this time.

2) You've commented on the abilities and testing a dozen times across a couple of threads. It is coming off to your peers as a bit obsessed and aggressive. Please take the advice to move on to some other line of discussion.

To clarify, repetition is against the rules of conduct? Pointing out flaws in a product? Restating the same point repeatedly in response to counter arguments? I’m not clear why a moderator is becoming involved in discussion of a rule system. There are no personal attacks taking place here, no inappropriate language or harsh words. Just direct criticisms of flaws in a product.

What exactly are you saying? Don’t repeat yourself? Repetitive counter arguments are circling each other. I’ve left it as “doesn’t meet my standard for compatibility” on this topic.

Be very specific. What is it you are asking to change about these posts? Is complaining about flawed rules not allowed on a forum to discuss the rules? That’s disturbing, if so.

 

[Umbran]

To clarify...

Mod Note:
To clarify - Rant here was told to not argue moderation in thread. He chose to not comply. He will not be participating in the thread further.

 

[Rune]

A lot of us have been through shifts like this before at one point or another & someone linked to a great example OOTS strip earlier, compare tiny hut & create food & water between the two... is it fair for the o5e wizard to say "no guys I'm single handedly invalidating supply the need for finding safe places to rest & so on to shatter the entire exploration pillar some of y'all now shine in before it's even in play"?

Fortunately, I was between campaigns when 3.5 came around. Good comparison, though. If I recall fly and haste both got nerfed pretty hard. And weapon sizes changed things on a fundamental level (as Belkar laments).

The truly traumatic transition came with 4e. That killed my years-long 3.5 campaign because conversion of half the party was impossible at launch. No half-orc, no monk, no gnomes.

 

[WanderingMystic]

So you’re saying it’s not -fully- compatible, then?

My specific concern here would be that most of a wizard’s strength is in its versatility and the A5e wizard appears to have gained a considerable amount of that.

It appears that the O5e wizard would need the O5e spells to remain relevant side by side.

My more general concern is that your solution does not work if the O5e wizard does not like the the A5e spells, because adopting a new ruleset (even a parallel one) requires unanimous consent. At least with my gaming groups.

Do note that this is not a criticism of Level Up, which looks to be, on the whole, a fairly brilliant game. I’ll probably never get a chance to implement it in full, but I’d like to give it a campaign one day.

However, my intent always was to lift pieces of it into my game and encourage players to do likewise. When that time comes, I’d like to be able to avoid rough transitions like the one presented in my initial example.

So, with regard to that example, and considering that I do not intend to force new options on old players, what solution would you (plural) recommend?

What you do is if a o5e mage teaches fireball to an a53 mage it is a rare spell. The rare version of the spell you specifically mentioned fireball is exactly just that. Now personally I would make copying it take linger cost more to show just how different the two wizards were taught.

 

[Rune]

What you do is if a o5e mage teaches fireball to an a53 mage it is a rare spell. The rare version of the spell you specifically mentioned fireball is exactly just that. Now personally I would make copying it take linger cost more to show just how different the two wizards were taught.

Thank you! This looks like a very good (and, importantly, simple) solution. I wonder if double cost would be about right.

 

[Satirical Bard]

I think it's obvious by now that there are some limits to complete interoperability [which is a different thing to compatibility] between the 2 systems. The example of an o5e wizard and a a5e wizard in the same party is one of them, without some finessing by the DM/Narrator.

Similarly, some o5e subclasses won't work on a5e base classes without some adjustments, because of the way they key off the o5e base class abilities (stars druids and drakewarden druids have come up, but there will be others), while others that were in the o5e OGL are better off being replaced with the new version of the same (beastmasters, moon druids, etc). But most subclasses bolt on just fine, which is great.

 

[This Effin’ GM]

I think it's obvious by now that there are some limits to complete interoperability [which is a different thing to compatibility] between the 2 systems. The example of an o5e wizard and a a5e wizard in the same party is one of them, without some finessing by the DM/Narrator.

Similarly, some o5e subclasses won't work on a5e base classes without some adjustments, because of the way they key off the o5e base class abilities (stars druids and drakewarden druids have come up, but there will be others), while others that were in the o5e OGL are better off being replaced with the new version of the same (beastmasters, moon druids, etc). But most subclasses bolt on just fine, which is great.

It’s funny you mention this, I will be watching a “revised beastmaster” from tashas A5E ranger in action this Tuesday! I’ll let ya’ll know how it goes