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D&D 5E Is long-term support of the game important?

You can't declare content Closed if it's based on existing d20 content and virtually everything Pathfinder produces is. The Gods can be declared Closed, because that's all fluff.

I'm fairly certain huge swaths of Bestiary 2-4, Advanced Player's Guide, the Ultimate books and Mythic Adventures could qualify as closed since they have unique mechanics invented by Paizo.

Claiming otherwise would allow me to reprint the Tome of Horrors, Ravenloft Player's Guide, and DragonStar rules on my blog.
 

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I'm fairly certain huge swaths of Bestiary 2-4, Advanced Player's Guide, the Ultimate books and Mythic Adventures could qualify as closed since they have unique mechanics invented by Paizo.

Mechanics can't be protected. Certain vocabulary and fluff can be, the mechanics in all the books you've mentioned can be used as long as the wording is changed.
 

Mechanics can't be protected. Certain vocabulary and fluff can be, the mechanics in all the books you've mentioned can be used as long as the wording is changed.

Unless it's so much a part of the look and feel that it steps into trade dress territory (see Tetris case). Not that I think this stuff falls in that category.
 

Unless it's so much a part of the look and feel that it steps into trade dress territory (see Tetris case). Not that I think this stuff falls in that category.

I think it would be harder to make that stick than you think. Generally, in terms of trade dress there needs to be a similarity (real or imagined) in some sort of visual representation. Font, colors etc. Stripping mechanics is going to leave a lot of those things behind.
 



Well, here's a point. It isn't just about carrying them around. It is about prep time and work.

If you've (generic you, not N'raac, personally) bought those 12 supplements, you've probably read through them, and digested a goodly chunk of them already, just for fun. For you, checking the rules online is a referencing action, looking up a reminder.

Perhaps. I wish I had time to read every gaming supplement I buy, and I'd love it if my memory was sharp enough to remember everything in the ones I do have. I look up the monsters pretty much every time. But unquestionably, the person with those references has likely looked at them to some extent. But then, when unusual issues from the core rules come up, I reference them too. Frex, when a player takes Improved Bull Rush, or some such, I refresh and enhance my knowledge of the rules for Bull Rush, as clearly it will be coming up in play.

To someone who hasn't bought the supplements, but buys the AP, looking them up online is a *learning* operation, not a reminder.

Admittedly, how many items in which the thing is stored is not the relevant bit for an online source. But how much extra rules-stuff you have to absorb before using the adventure is still relevant.

I think the "I don't use errata with the rules, it is the rules" is a tad glib. For those working with physical rulebooks, they are separate documents. That they "are the rules" doesn't mean that you can operate without having to refer to the documents separately.

To me, it's a much greater hassle having frequent errata on line. I can print out that couple of monsters in the AP, that feat from a splatbook, etc. Having a 30 page printout to go with each of the core rulebooks, since those rules may come up any time, is a much greater hassle.

My point is, I want everything I need, other than the core rules, in the physical hardcopy adventure I bought. But that's not done (by almost anyone). So, yeah I'd have the same issue with that.

I don't know many people who would object to it being reprinted in the AP when it comes up. As I said, even if you own it, it's easier to referenced it all in one place in the thing you just bought that is referencing it. We have decades of experience in usability with adventures, and "everything right there" is often a popular thing. It might not be for everyone, but I think it's safe to say it's for an awful lot of people.

For what it's worth, I would object to paying full price for a book which is 10%, or 25%, or whatever %, reprinted material I already have, or reprinted material I did not want to buy in the first place.

I also question why, if many/most people would prefer everything be reprinted in the adventure itself, no one seems to be publishing towards that market. Have all the publishers missed the boat, or is it possible the reprint model is not as desired as you believe? Maybe Paizo should offer to sell an AP Supplement which reprints the rules from non-core products which are not contained in the AP itself, and see how many sales they get. That would test the waters pretty nicely. Or maybe they should poll the audience first and see if sales are likely.

Isn't it mostly sold on a subscription basis, sight unseen?

That's up to the buyer. Their descriptions are, I believe, posted with more than sufficient warning that I could have cancelled my subscription before WotR started if I decided I did not want an AP focused on Mythic Adventures. I bought a couple of older AP's, liked what I saw, picked up a couple of AP's as they came out because I liked the topics, then subscribed because I was pretty much liking everything upcoming as well.

Yes, the old D&D modules DID reference later books. Which is why I mentioned it earlier, and why we're on this topic in the first place.

I'm trying to get a handle on the comparison. You included the first Bestiary in your reference list but I would think that's a core book analogous to the D&D Monster Manual. I could add the Advanced GM Guide, but Pathfinder Core pretty much combines PHB and DMG. But my recollection is there's not a lot of rules in the AGG, so I'm not sure how something referenced would be essential. I haven't reviewed the module in detail to assess whether the dozen sources are essential, substantial, tangential or "for further info, if you want it, check out this book".

I also note that their policies make it clear any hardcover is fair game, which is a big chunk of that dozen references. You may still feel they should not be part of the references, of course. I'm curious how 4e handled this when books like PHB II hit the shelves. Were they off limits in other books? Or are they also doing the same thing?

On a related issue, if Paizo put up a single link to a page that JUST had all the stuff in a particular episode of a specific Adventure Path, that would be better. It still doesn't address my issue that everything you need other than the core rules should be right there in the hardcopy book you bought, it still doesn't deal with the issue of printing out all that crap and putting it in place in the hardcopy you bought, but it would be better than the mish-mash that currently exists for the online referencing.

I like the idea of a Link page. I wonder if anyone's ever pitched that to Paizo. But then, my players can now check out all the monsters in the AP in one easy stop, so maybe that would be an issue for some groups.
 

I'm also coming to think that the generation time of gamers is shorter than a decade. There may be what is sometimes referred to as a "long tail" of folks who stick with a game for a decade, I strongly suspect the bulk of players swap off to other games or dip into and out of the hobby enough that support of a game for a decade simply isn't all that necessary.
I think you're right. Every time a new edition is announced -- even the relatively short WotC editions -- for every fan questioning "What's wrong with this edition? Wouldn't it be better if TSR/WotC committed to supporting one evergreen edition?", there's a fan saying "Thank Jeebus; the current edition is really starting to show its age! I'm tired of all the bloat!"

As each edition goes from fresh-off-the-press to 5+ years old, a growing portion of its fans become disillusioned as a result of their growing understanding of the rules. It's not something that I can personally relate to, but there is a population of fans who can be relied upon to buy a new edition because they've "Seen behind the curtain" of the current one, and are looking for the sense of wonder and magic that comes with a new edition.

Then there are the fans who will buy at least the core books of every new edition just to "support the hobby." This doesn't counter any arguments that long-term support is good for fans in general, but from WotC's perspective, it's a good argument in favor of frequent edition changes.

Then there's the fact that the more editions D&D has, the more variety it has; which I think is a wonderful thing. Whatever your favorite playstyle and ruleset is, there's a D&Der or a potential D&Der who wants something different. In fact, the only way that D&D is ever going to come close to dominating the ttrpg market isn't with One Edition to Rule Them All -- it'll be by having An Edition for Every Taste.

(Even then, there'll always be a market for other ttrpgs, but you get the idea. ;))

So as much as long-term support may sound like a great idea, and heck, a lot of fans might even agree, I think history has shown that it's unimportant -- and arguably undesirable.
 

Forgive me for presuming, but the argument is reaching.

What argument? I said I don't think it applies in this situation, and you seem to agree with me but are claiming we disagree?

Maybe I didn't write it particularly well. I said, "Not that I think this stuff falls in that category." By that, I meant to say this thing I am talking about is just a side note about the law in general, and does not apply to this particular instance.
 
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To me, it's a much greater hassle having frequent errata on line. I can print out that couple of monsters in the AP, that feat from a splatbook, etc. Having a 30 page printout to go with each of the core rulebooks, since those rules may come up any time, is a much greater hassle.
Most 4e errata affects particular stat blocks - be those for monsters, feats, or powers. If you are not interacting with that game element, you don't need to interact with the errata.

The only really crucial errata to the "spine" is to the p 42 DC and damage values, which settled on their final values in Essentials and MM3 respectively.

I'm curious how 4e handled this when books like PHB II hit the shelves. Were they off limits in other books?
The PHB3 hybrid rules include hybrid rules for all classes published to that time. And, as a general rule, later lists of feats will include racial options for races published up to that date, even if found in a later PHB than the first one.
 

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