D&D 5E Is my DM being fair?

[Arial Black]

And my argument has been steadfastly this, and no other: abusing the initiative mechanic to reinsert a backdoor surprise effect because you, as DM, made the decision to allow a feat that eliminated surprise as a mechanic is bad play.

Since 'surprise' in 5E simply means that you cannot take reactions until after your first turn and cannot move or act during your first turn, then by definition 'immunity to surprise' means that you can use reactions before your first turn and you can move/act during your first turn.

Only telling the party what they can see and not telling them about the things they failed to notice(!) is not 're-inserting backdoor surprise'.

War, battle, armed conflict, whatever you want to call it, is not all about being 'fair'. Combatants use strategy, superior numbers, training, equipment, terrain, everything in their power to be as unfair as possible!

This includes hiding in ambush. How ambushing works is that you hide from the enemy, so that they don't notice you until after they attack. That's how it works!

There is no omniscient power that mystically exists to inform those caught in an ambush of the numbers, type and deployment of ambushers that they have not noticed!

You're damn right it's unfair! It's unfair by design! That's the point of ambush. That's the point of ALL military strategy: to arrange things so that it is not fair but instead so heavily favouring you that you are almost sure to win!

The Alert feat does exactly what it says it does. Nowhere does it state or even suggest that the feat lets you know ANYTHING about those who are about to attack you.

Here's a quote on the same subject in another forum:-

Imagine you are playing the assassin in the woods. You rolled a stealth check to hide and got a 22. You are patiently waiting for Albert, Bert, and Colbert to approach so you can kill them.

Their (A, B, and C's) perception checks are 16, 14, and 6, so the DM rules that you are successfully hidden. He thus decides that at the start of combat, the party will be surprised.

Okay, so at the correct moment, you are going to loose your first arrow. The DM decides that this will initiate combat and therefore everyone should roll initiative. Albert: 21, You: 17, Bert 14, Colbert 9. Albert has the Alert feat.

"You start to loose arrows from your hiding place. Everyone rolls initiative." So now, after having said this, it turns out Albert has beat you on initiative. Since Albert is aware that arrows are being loosed from your general direction, he moves his miniature toward the bushes, and it turns out he moves his miniature right into your square, so the DM rules that he discovers you, and attacks.

Does this seem fair? Because it does not seem fair to me.

You have been hiding and you haven't done anything to give-up your position. The DM has just royally screwed you, in my opinion. And it's not just because you got attacked. It's because the entire handling of the situation makes no sense.

Albert cannot conceivably have any idea that anything is up until you do something. You cannot blow your cover or loose an arrow, and it would be unfair for the DM to just force this onto the situation when it makes no sense.

The Feat means you are not surprised, it does not give you any further mechanical advantages. It does not automatically allow you to know where the enemy is, or what they are doing.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The Feat means you are not surprised, it does not give you any further mechanical advantages. It does not automatically allow you to know where the enemy is, or what they are doing.

How would you rule this...

My PC has a weapon of warning. It's not exactly alert, but it negates surprise for the whole party.

Bad guy NPC scry us. They are about to teleport in and surprise us.
DM: OK, your all surprised as I teleport in and everyone is shooting you.
Me: Weapon of warning remember no surprise...
DM: Fine, roll initative.

initative 24(my cleric/paliden) 23 (Tie the PC Rogue and the NPC gunmen) 17 (PC Fighter) 12 (NPC wizard) 11 (PC Ranger) 9 (NPC with us demi god) 7 (PC fighter/rogue)

so my turn first "So what do I see"
DM "Nothing they can't teleport in until 12...
Me "OK, I cast Bless"
DM "You can't nothing happened!"
Me "Yes something did the weapon of warning alerted us"
DM "Fine waste your spell"
(lots of discussion and declairs of actions)
finally on 12 DM "My wizard saw you do all this prep she isn't teleporting in she's going to wait for your spell to run out"

 

[Not a Hobbit]

edited: How the heck do I delete a post?

 

[Caliban]

How would you rule this...

My PC has a weapon of warning. It's not exactly alert, but it negates surprise for the whole party.

Looks like you have already made a ruling for that situation.

Of course, the creature you target with the Scry spell gets a Wisdom save to negate the spell, which bring up the question of "do you know when you are the target of a spell and have to make a save?"

Plus, unless the enemy is scrying on them while they are in a place the caster is personally familiar with, the Teleport spell will probably be using the "Viewed once - with magic" miss chance and is quite likely to land nowhere close to the party...


So if it was me, I'd probably roll initiative only if I determine that the teleporting bad guy will actually be landing on target - i.e. after the teleport spell is cast.

Thus the scry and teleport would be before combat, the surprise round would be AFTER the bad guy arrives, giving the bad guy a full turn after casting teleport...except that the PC's have magic that negates the surprise, so no surprise round and combat starts with everyone taking actions normally on their initiative.

 

[Kalshane]

How would you rule this...

My PC has a weapon of warning. It's not exactly alert, but it negates surprise for the whole party.

Bad guy NPC scry us. They are about to teleport in and surprise us.
DM: OK, your all surprised as I teleport in and everyone is shooting you.
Me: Weapon of warning remember no surprise...
DM: Fine, roll initative.

initative 24(my cleric/paliden) 23 (Tie the PC Rogue and the NPC gunmen) 17 (PC Fighter) 12 (NPC wizard) 11 (PC Ranger) 9 (NPC with us demi god) 7 (PC fighter/rogue)

so my turn first "So what do I see"
DM "Nothing they can't teleport in until 12...
Me "OK, I cast Bless"
DM "You can't nothing happened!"
Me "Yes something did the weapon of warning alerted us"
DM "Fine waste your spell"
(lots of discussion and declairs of actions)
finally on 12 DM "My wizard saw you do all this prep she isn't teleporting in she's going to wait for your spell to run out"

I wouldn't roll initiative until the enemy party actually teleports in. If neither side has any way of actually attacking the other (because they're miles away) then combat hasn't started yet and initiative isn't rolled.

 

[Arial Black]

How would you rule this...

My PC has a weapon of warning. It's not exactly alert, but it negates surprise for the whole party.

Bad guy NPC scry us. They are about to teleport in and surprise us.
DM: OK, your all surprised as I teleport in and everyone is shooting you.
Me: Weapon of warning remember no surprise...
DM: Fine, roll initative.

initative 24(my cleric/paliden) 23 (Tie the PC Rogue and the NPC gunmen) 17 (PC Fighter) 12 (NPC wizard) 11 (PC Ranger) 9 (NPC with us demi god) 7 (PC fighter/rogue)

so my turn first "So what do I see"
DM "Nothing they can't teleport in until 12...
Me "OK, I cast Bless"
DM "You can't nothing happened!"
Me "Yes something did the weapon of warning alerted us"
DM "Fine waste your spell"
(lots of discussion and declairs of actions)
finally on 12 DM "My wizard saw you do all this prep she isn't teleporting in she's going to wait for your spell to run out"

This is a question about 'when to start combat/when to roll initiative'.

Before teleport is cast, there is no combat.

Just like combat begins not with the triggering attack, but with the triggering intention to attack kicking off the surprise/initiative process.

For your example, the Weapon of Warning pings not before teleport is cast, not after they arrive, but when the enemy are in transit.

The weapon magically alerts the entire party that combat is about to begin. Teleport was not cast during combat so there as no initiative at that point. As they arrive, that's when combat begins, surprise is determined (none, in this case) and initiative rolled.

The baddies are already present on initiative count 24 when your cleric/paladin takes their turn.

Let's say that the baddy who cast the teleport rolls the highest initiative. He could very well be first to act. His first Action In Combat is not to cast teleport, because when he cast that spell there was no combat yet, therefore no Combat Rounds and no Actions In Combat permitted or needed to cast it.

Teleporting in usually is an excellent surprise tactic. As DM, you determine who is or is not surprised. Usually, this might involve opposed checks, but the DM can and frequently does just rule that 'those guys are surprised, these guys are not', no roll needed. This is one of those times!

The baddies are not surprised because of their scrying, the good guys ARE surprised, because there is no way they could notice the baddies before they even arrive.

The thing is that Weapons of Warning, Alert feat, anything that makes you immune to surprise, supercede the DM's decision that the good guys are surprised. Nothing has gone wrong here! The Weapon of Warning and the game itself are all working as intended.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I wouldn't roll initiative until the enemy party actually teleports in. If neither side has any way of actually attacking the other (because they're miles away) then combat hasn't started yet and initiative isn't rolled.

That's how I would do it too. If initiative has been rolled then the teleport has happened. All that's left is to declare actions in combat.

Though if I had Bad Guys smart enough to scry the party I would have one try to sneak and steal that weapon of warning.

 

[Harzel]

It seems to me that the Weapon of Warning presents an added issue, above and beyond those of the Alert feat that have been discussed. This is what the DMG says.

This magic weapon warns you of danger. While the weapon is on your person, you have advantage on initiative rolls. In addition, you and any of you companions within 30 feet of you can't be surprised, except when incapacitated by something other than nonmagical sleep. The weapon magically awakens you and your companions within range if any of you are sleeping naturally when combat begins.

The problem is the first sentence. Some, maybe most, will read this as a separate property of the object. However, to me it appears to be far too generic and vague to be operative. IMO, it is the sort of fluffy overview that you often see opening the description of a spell; such fluff is much more rare in the magic item descriptions, but there are other instances. (For example, Elemental Gem: "This gem contains a mote of elemental energy.") Generally, this fluff can be ignored without loss of meaning, because the intended properties are defined by the specifics that follow.

So, even though most of Arial's post is along the lines of how I would handle things,

For your example, the Weapon of Warning pings not before teleport is cast, not after they arrive, but when the enemy are in transit.

The weapon magically alerts the entire party that combat is about to begin.

I would not go this way. Mechanically, there is no need for any sort of pinging. Despite your opponents' sudden arrival, your group are not surprised. Also, the weapon's possessor has advantage on the ensuing initiative role. Those are the mechanical effects.

If I want to narrate the details of the PCs' experience, I will say the weapon induces a greatly heightened, but not supernatural, awareness and focus. You are completely in the moment / in the zone. Provided that the intruders teleport in in plain sight, they immediately catch your attention, time seems to slow down, you see them turn toward you with malice in their eyes. The barbarian is gripping her battleaxe tightly, her body slightly crouched and taut; the hands of the robed figure are beginning to gleam with arcane energy, etc. If you are quick, though, you still may be able to act before they do. Roll initiative.

Not the only way to do it, surely, but that's the approach I think I would take. The problem, at least for me, with pinging is that I'm not convinced I can find a good heuristic for when the ping should go off. In this case, pinging during the teleport seems like an ok answer, but what heuristic(s) are you using to guide that decision? Personally, I would want something to help ensure some semblance of consistency in the PCs' experience if I were going to ping them. Not saying it couldn't exist, I am just not seeing how to do it.

 

[Arial Black]

Heh. The 'ping' I mentioned is not (necessarily) an actual pinging sound.

It's shorthand for the moment when the Weapon makes you aware combat is about to start. You can fluff it how you want: a preternatural hyper-awareness, a 'Spider-Sense', short term combat pre-cognition...a 'pinging' sound...

 

[Soul Stigma]

Heh. The 'ping' I mentioned is not (necessarily) an actual pinging sound.

It's shorthand for the moment when the Weapon makes you aware combat is about to start. You can fluff it how you want: a preternatural hyper-awareness, a 'Spider-Sense', short term combat pre-cognition...a 'pinging' sound...

...a red police light on the hilt.