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4E Is my friend's unwillingness to try 4e irrational?

atom crash

First Post
And to expand on what Umbran posted above, in our lives the cheese is being moved on us all the time. (Confound you Umbran for bring "Who Moved My Cheese" into this!) Change is scary for many people, and it can also be irritating to being constantly forced to adapt to different/new situations at work or school. We take comfort in what is familiar and known.

Some people may especially enjoy the fact that in their gaming experience, the cheese wasn't moving. But now it is. We'll need to learn a new system -- even if the new system is "better," its different, and there are some who may feel more comfortable playing a system they know than trying to learn a new system, even if it is supposed to be better. And we won't really know for sure if it will be better -- and how much better it may be -- until we try it out.

That's enough to frustrate a reasonable person.
 

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sjmiller

First Post
You know, I can really feel for Bob in this case. I am not a fan of 4e and do not plan on converting to it. Do I have logical reasons for this? Not really, at least not that I can really put into words. It's more of a gut feeling, just a personal feeling that what I have heard about 4e rubs me the wrong way. Sure, I have some more concrete reasons for not being a fan: cost, inclusion of things I do not like, exclusion of things I do like, etc. My overriding reasons are entirely in the personal feeling area. Is it logical? Not really. It is, however, my opinion, which means it is neither right nor wrong.

I bet that Bob feels the same way. Something, or maybe several somethings, about 4e rub him the wrong way. He can't put his finger on it, but he doesn't like it.

Being pressured by your group to "switch and be happy, or else" is not going to help the situation.
 

mmu1

First Post
This topic reminds me of my own reaction to 3.5 coming out. I was (broadly speaking) against it, most people I gamed with were for it. I found that annoying, because most of them had no reason to switch other than the fact they were happy to go with the flow - or so it seemed to me - but I quickly realized there was little point in talking about it. In the large scheme of things, it didn't really matter to me that much, so rather than argue about it with them, I let it go and did my best to ignore the parts that annoyed me.

Now, if it was 4E they were planning a change to, chances are I'd have dug in my heels instead, but I don't know what excuses I might have given for it. I might very well have tried to go with something like "it's too much work to change all my books", or "it's too expensive" or "sorry, I just don't like it" rather than state my real feelings on the subjects, which would have been something like:

"I'm really angry that we're dropping something that works, even though we don't have enough information about the new game, you failed to consider what do we have carefully enough, and the little I've seen rubs me the wrong way and IMO looks like crap. Thanks a lot, it's great to know that in a few months I'll probably have one less group to play with."

Sometimes it's good when people keep their feelings bottled up and take them to the grave. ;)
 

PoeticJustice

First Post
Let's analyze the economic motive, instead of focusing on the other reasons Bob won't voice.

Why is economy an issue? Could he take umbrage at the fact that 4E is coming only a few years after 3.5, which was itself on the heels of 3.0? I know this reasoning factors into my decision of not moving to 4E. I don't think it's the right time for a new edition, nor do I think what's wrong with 3.5 is worth fixing with money. Could he be 'voting with his dollar'?

Also, learning new rules can be a pain for some of us.

Just something to think about.
 

Betote

First Post
Haffrung Helleyes said:
Why? They complain that the D&D 3.5 translations suck. For example, that the names chosen for feats are often words that don't mean what they should.

I wouldn't say the Spanish translation of 3.5 sucks. I find most of the feat names et al quite evocative, but there's a long tradition of saying that Spanish translations suck.

Forgotten Realms' translations do suck, however :p
 

kennew142

First Post
Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Why are so many gamers unwilling to switch to a different game, and focus only on one?

I can only answer this one anecdotally. Not all gamers are hardcore gamers. My wife, for example, loves D&D (we've been playing togwther since 1981). She played GURPS, HERO and RQ when I ran them, but more because she wanted to play with me than for love of those games. She is always most comfortable with the tropes and mechanics of D&D. She is interested in the upcoming 4e because it seems to be addressing the issues that bother her with 3e, but when it comes down to it D&D is D&D no matter what the edition. It always feels more like D&D than it does like other games.

My wife wouldn't throw a fit if we started up a GURPS/HERO/WOD/Whatever game. But she would probably find something else to do instead. It is easier to do that now that we have three children. My group doesn't do non-D&D games anymore because for some gamers it is too much work to track different rule systems at the same time. We all like playing together, so we only play one system at a time.
 

Grazzt

Demon Lord
sjmiller said:
You know, I can really feel for Bob in this case. I am not a fan of 4e and do not plan on converting to it. Do I have logical reasons for this? Not really, at least not that I can really put into words. It's more of a gut feeling, just a personal feeling that what I have heard about 4e rubs me the wrong way.

I've got a couple of friends that feel the same way. They are either going to stick with 3.5, roll back to an older version of the game, or move completely away from D&D to something else (the last being the most likely from what Ive heard). 4E (the stuff we know) just doesn't seem to interest them at all.
 

Arnwyn

First Post
Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Why are so many gamers unwilling to switch to a different game, and focus only on one?
1) Limited time (eg. time it takes to learn other games).
2) Bad experiences with other games and/or games simply not being for them.

These are the two biggies for us.
 

Ourph

First Post
Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Just as a vaguely related side note:

Why are so many gamers unwilling to switch to a different game, and focus only on one?
Our group is almost exactly opposite the situation kennew142 describes above. We all love to try new games, but when it comes to D&D we don't see any reason to switch around between editions. We found ONE D&D that we like and we're sticking with it for D&D gaming. When we want something different, we play a different game, not another flavor of D&D.
 

Eldragon

First Post
Anyone who passes judgment on 4e (be it for or against) before they have seen the book is foolish. There is no other way to describe it. Or, to use the parlance of the times: Don't knock it until you try it.

We have been given bits and pieces about 4e and nothing else. It is too soon to decide if you will or won't be switching your games to 4e.

I'm no longer excited about 4e, and have since started up a new 3.5 game. But that does not mean I will refuse to play 4e when presented the option.
 

Mercule

Adventurer
We're talking about a hobby, here. The motivating factor in a hobby is to have some fun and relax. If 3.5 does this for him at an acceptable level, then it would be silly for him to commit to changing, at this point. He might take a look at it, later, and decide that it'd meet his needs even better, or he might not.

I don't think your friend is irrational at all.

On the other hand, there are people like me (and, from the sound of it, you) whose hobby needs are not satisfactorily met by 3.5. It would be irrational for us to stick with it. For myself, it's never been about 3.5 vs 4e. It's been Hero vs. Savage Worlds vs. 4e (or even nWoD).

It's all in taste and interest.
 

danzig138

First Post
Eldragon said:
Anyone who passes judgment on 4e (be it for or against) before they have seen the book is foolish.We have been given bits and pieces about 4e and nothing else. It is too soon to decide if you will or won't be switching your games to 4e.
Bull. Sure, all we've gotten so far are bits and pieces, but quite a few bits and pieces. If everything they've revealed so far is something I don't like, something that just doesn't jive with how I think games should be (at least the ones I play), then it's not foolish for me to figure I won't be adopting the game. Why? Because they aren't designing the game I need or want. And that's okay. If the bits and pieces were 50/50 or something, then sure, judgment should probably be withheld, but so far, that isn't the case. There are quite a few things in life I know I won't like without ever trying them (like skydiving), and it's not foolishness - it's a result of knowing myself.


For the OP: Sure, it might be irrational? So what? Leave it be, and when the time comes, things will work themselves out one way or the other, and there's no point in even bothering with it before then. Burn that bridge when it gets here. Until, good gaming with all your friends.
 

Raduin711

Adventurer
Wolfspider said:
Eeeeyeeesh. They're friends for crying out loud. It's only natural to respect what your friend likes to do, even if it's different from what you enjoy doing... you almost make it sound like a sin for someone not to be excited about 4e and not wanting to be included in the game...

For the record, I would agree that it is no sin for Bob to not want to play 4e, and continue playing 3.5.
 


rogueattorney

Adventurer
Let me be "Bob" for a second...

"I'm looking at my game shelf right now, and I see at least 4 different versions of D&D and another 9 rpgs, all of which I'd be perfectly happy to play with you guys. I have an rpg wishlist with another half-dozen rpgs I'd be happy to pick up and play with you guys. I also have a few thousand dollars worth of board, war, and card games that I'd love to play with you guys.

I have no interest whatsoever in buying into another fantasy rpg when I already have four perfectly good ones (not counting multiple versions of D&D). I have no interest in learning a new game, when I haven't already explored all the ins and outs of the games I have.

I can see you guys are excited about 4e, and if you guys really want to buy another edition of the game I've already bought 4 times, knock yourselves out. I'm going to sit this one out and maybe join a softball league or something."

While I don't know "Bob," I'd guess his reasoning is something like that.

At least that's why I won't be buying any 4e stuff. If that makes me irrational... oh well.
 

Aus_Snow

First Post
I can't help feeling sorry for 'Bob'. If I were in that position, I would be similarly outta luck, in the same kinda way. But at least there would still be the other group. . .

It seems he hasn't been very articulate in expressing why he's not keen on 4e, true enough. But it's pretty clear that he's just not (keen.)

Would he be willing to DM 3e for you guys (and would you be willing to play it) - thus keeping some 3e happening in that group, but without the DMs opposed to running it having to do so - and try out playing 4e, just for the hell of it, even if it's a bit distasteful. . . as an experiment?
 

ThirdWizard

First Post
Eldragon said:
Anyone who passes judgment on 4e (be it for or against) before they have seen the book is foolish.

I would point you to this poll (yeah yeah self selecting and so forth, but almost 56%), in which case you seem to be saying a whole lot of people on these boards are foolish in their decisions.

Even though we don't know what the rules will be like, exactly, we have a pretty good idea of what it will be like to play 4e. We know the design philosophy, we know what they're aiming for, and we know that they're good designers. Now, what their aiming for isn't to everyone's taste, so not everyone is going to love it, but speaking for myself, I'm switching to 4e when it comes out, and I find it very unlikely that I'm not going to love this game.

People point out quite often that we aren't getting hit by marketers selling the game to us, and this is true. One of the things this means is that we aren't seeing a blockbuster trailer of 4e with all the best parts made even better. We aren't getting "Next time on Lost" where the marketers lie to us to get us to tune in next week (though this seasons has been awesome!). We're getting the creators honest feelings on their work. They're trying to sell it, sure, but we're getting some sneak peeks under the hood and not just a flashy shot of 4e driving on a winding mountain road.

We can't be sure how much of these new aspects are emphasized in the game until we see it. We don't know how similar to 3e it is. When they show us a new mechanic, we can't be sure if it will show up every session, every encounter, or every round, not positively. But, anyone who has loved all but one or two things they've seen will almost certainly love the game and anyone who has disliked all but one or two things will probably dislike the game.
 

Dragonblade

Adventurer
Aus_Snow said:
Would he be willing to DM 3e for you guys (and would you be willing to play it) - thus keeping some 3e happening in that group, but without the DMs opposed to running it having to do so - and try out playing 4e, just for the hell of it, even if it's a bit distasteful. . . as an experiment?

Thats not a bad idea. I would certainly love to play in a game that Bob ran. I no longer like DMing 3.5, but I can still play it. And though I have never played in a game he has run, I think he would be a fantastic DM.
 

Grimstaff

Explorer
ThirdWizard said:
I would point you to this poll (yeah yeah self selecting and so forth, but almost 56%), in which case you seem to be saying a whole lot of people on these boards are foolish in their decisions.

Another interesting trope touched on in that poll is that folks who are switching to 4E, sight unseen, have a very specific reason why: they are tired of 3.5 and its number crunching. On the other hand, like Bob, folks who have already decided not to try 4E, again sight unseen, have much more ephemeral and varied reasons for not wanting to. I suspect the root cause for most of them is simply "I didn't need a change, I was fine the way things were, so all this fuss annoys the hell out of me!"

I also suspect that Bob, as well as many other 4E pooh-poohers, will eventually come around on their own. Despite the very vocal minority, I don't believe there will be any more gamers playing 3.5 in June of '09 than there are playing 2E or any other older edition of the game.
 

JahellTheBard

First Post
I don't believe there will be any more gamers playing 3.5 in June of '09 than there are playing 2E or any other older edition of the game.

I just hope you are wrong ;) ... but only time will tell us :cool: .... maybe some kink of 3.75 will go on on his path ...

I think there will be freedom for everyone to chose ... and besides ... after all, we do not know what 4 ed. will really be when June comes ...
 

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