Is Mystic Theurge a balanced P. class?

[darthkilmor]

So, i've a cleric lvl 3 and was thinking about going for wiz + mystic theuge, but my DM and at least one other player consider this prestige class to be excessively twinkish. Our party has no wizard and this probably won't change. its rogue , barb, monk, ranger, palad, and cleric(me).
Is a mystic better that just going straight cleric?

While I disagree with the twinkish idea of the p.class, I was hoping to see what the rest of you all thought about the generic cle3/wiz3/mystic theurge X build, is this prestige class unbalanced?

 

[KarinsDad]

They are very versatile.

But, they are also very weak relative to the rest of the group.


For example, a Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / MT 3 casts 6D6 Fireballs. A Wizard 9 casts 9D6 Fireballs.

A Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / MT 3 at best can cast Cure Serious Wounds 3D8+6. A Cleric 9 casts Cure Serious Wounds 3D8+9, but at best can also cast Cure Critical Wounds 4D8+9.

When the Mystic Theurge is casting normal spells, the straight caster can be starting to cast metamagicked versions of those same spells.


The Mystic Theurge gains versatility at the price of throwing lower levels spells, both at opponents and to buff/assist allies.


However, I have played one (a Druid / Sorcerer / MT) and they are fun to play. Having more different spells, even if they are lower level, is a lot of fun.

It just is not for people who want to be blasters or some other form of mega-power spell slinger.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

It looks excessive on paper, but general consensus seems to be that the loss of one to two spell levels off the top end makes up for the class' overall flexibility and for the very large number of spells per day.

 

[Cheiromancer]

They are strong right at 9th or 10th level, but they are weak at lower levels.

The area where they are twinkish is if they are combined with various prestige classes that have funky spell advancements. Like Ur-Priest or something. Straight cleric/wizard is not a problem.

 

[Owen K.C. Stephens]

I'm inclined to believe the M.T PrC can be overbalanced, depending on the overall character build and the type of campaign it's put in. For example, a character with a good Wis and Int (or Cha) score makes a much more powerful mystic theurge than a character with only one good spelklcasting score. A character who can manage to take the Practiced spellcaster feat even once overcomes one major problem (caster level, so he -can- throw 9d6 fireballs), and a character that can swing the feat twice (once for each class) has a lot of spells-per-day to make up for the loss of upper-end spells.

Further, GMs that try to push their groups' encounters-per-day as a way to curtailing spellcaster power are going to find MTs have a lot more staying power, even if they can't hit each encounter quite as hard.

On the other hand, a player who actually goes through the levels of being a split-class spellcaster without the MT benefit probably really wants the class enough that I, at least would allow it. It's when a campaign starts at 9th level that I become doubtful of a sor 3/clr 3/MT 3.

Owen K.C. Stephens
d20 Triggerman

 

[Infiniti2000]

It's not unbalanced, particularly if you're playing it up from scratch and not just creating a 20th level character. Losing 2 spell level from straight-classed casters is a huge drawback. As you get higher and higher level, the drawback becomes bigger and bigger. When a normal cleric can cast heal, you can only neutralize poison. The examples are endless. You get a lot of spells, but nothing increases your number of actions per round, so it's not as great a benefit as it appears. More importantly, because you lose your 2 highest spell levels, you can't even get quicken spell as early as anyone else.

Basically, anyone who says it is unbalanced has never played one from the get go or even contemplated it.

 

[interwyrm]

As a wizard/cleric/mystic theurge with practiced spellcaster for each class... it's still tough to measure up to the other party members. It trades power for versatility. As a GM, that is a player decision that I would love. I'm tired of combat monkeys.

 

[irdeggman]

You also don't gain any wizard bonus feats, advancement of your familiar (for things based on wizard level vice character level) and turn undead doesn't advance.

These are all things that factor into the prCl being balanced.

I too thought it was out of whack when I first saw it but have gradually come to realize it isn't.

 

[AuraSeer]

Is a mystic better that just going straight cleric?

No, Theurge is definitely not better, especially if you lack a full cleric in the party. Going Theurge significantly harms your ability as a healer, without granting much in exchange.

By 11th level a cleric is casting amazingly useful spells like heal and raise dead and hero's feast. At the same character level, a Wiz3/Clr3/The5 is only throwing cure serious and does not even have access to neutralize poison yet. At any level, the MT lacks the power of a full cleric (or full wizard).

The lessened spell power means you need to spend more actions on healing. Especially in a large party, you'll spend almost every combat running around trying to keep your allies alive. That leaves you with little time to throw around wizard spells. In parties where a theurge must play primary healer, he'll be lucky if he gets to cast even one attack spell per combat.

Also note that, unlike the cleric, the MT cannot wear armor. That means he's more likely to get hurt when he has to run up and heal the front-line fighters. That requires "wasting" actions on healing himself, which further reduces his usefulness to the rest of the party.

In general, the MT is pretty well balanced. He has more versatility than either kind of straight caster, but makes up for that with a lack of raw power. He certainly cannot do the job of either a full cleric or a full mage.

 

[Storm Raven]

You also don't gain any wizard bonus feats, advancement of your familiar (for things based on wizard level vice character level) and turn undead doesn't advance.

The MT is a pretty balanced class. Losing two spell levels in each class is a big hit to begin with. Losing all of the level dependent increases, like those listed above also hurts. When you run into undead at 10th level, having the turning capabilities of a 3rd level cleric is going to be a real downer. Many domains have domain powers that are level dependent as well, which makes them less useful for a MT.

One thing that hasn't really been mentioned is that the MT is light on feats (you gain no bonus feats as a wizard other than Scribe Scroll), but really needs to take Practiced Spellcaster twice, which limits your ability to diversify your abilities through that avenue.

Effectively, you trade your highest level spells and higher level sundry abilities for a collection of lower level spells. Its not a great trade-off, and in many cases seems to be a subpar choice.