D&D 5E Is Neil Gaiman Wrong?

[TwoSix]

At what stage are you not playing DnD anymore? Im not here to talk about your rules. Im here to talk about the rules.

Assuming you start with a D&D base, we're sailing on a Ship of Theseus here.

 

[Flamestrike]

Assuming you start with a D&D base, we're sailing on a Ship of Theseus here.

Indeed.

I even went as far in my OP to state that 'unless you're houseruling or ignoring abilities as written past T1 or so' (i.e. capping your games at around 4th level).

Like; you could turn 5E into a gritty GoT like rules and setting by gutting all powers past 4th level or so, removing gonzo elements, and adding in a ton of other house rules and alt rules. But at that stage we're not talking about the game as written; we're talking about that game.

 

[Reynard]

True. But at the same time let's take ... I dunno ... Iron Man. The guy flies as supersonic speeds, shoots energy beams that can cut through steel, can easily take out tanks, ignores machine gun fire, can lift several tons (75-100 based on a quick google search).

A 20th level PC can do none of those things. I'd say a tank could be considered roughly equal to a dragon ... and they're no match for Iron Man. Several of them might be a challenge but just one? Yawn. Team up Iron Man with the league? The dragon would be toast in a round or two at most.

Sure, but just because they don't exactly match doesn't mean they aren't comparatively superheroic. Which I don't have a problem with. if anything, I dislike how quickly it happens in the game world by default. But's a subject for a different thread.

Aside: That 15th level TPK I mentioned was at the "hands" of a dragon, in fact.

 

[TwoSix]

Like; you could turn 5E into a gritty GoT like rules and setting by gutting all powers past 4th level or so, removing gonzo elements, and adding in a ton of other house rules and alt rules. But at that stage we're not talking about the game as written; we're talking about that game.

Sure, I just think the sticking point is "Do we call that game D&D"?

 

[Fenris-77]

Um, dude. I said they are the same except that the ones in the DMG are OFFICIAL. That's exactly the same as saying, they are the same, except for the weight of the ones in the DMG.

I create House Options. The DMG gives Official Options. The one and ONLY difference, is officiality.


You're right. They call it default, not base. Same difference.

Well, I am right, but not in the way you think I am. The important word is official, not option. The fact that a rule appears in the core books puts it right on par with any other rule in those books. Regardless of which of those official rules I choose to use in my game, I am playing the official D&D rules. I'm not house ruling anything, or the equivalent. More specifically, regardless of which rules I choose to use, my D&D isn't 'less D&D', or less official, or less whatever than anyone else's because of which rules I'm using. That was the suggestion upstream, to which I am quite opposed on principle. I don't really care about the argument that surrounds it though.

I'm very specifically not on anyone's side here, or trying to score points off you somehow. I just disagree with your reading of what 'D&D' is, and who might then be said to be 'playing D&D' or not.

 

[Flamestrike]

Well, I am right, but not in the way you think I am. The important word is official, not option. The fact that a rule appears in the core books puts it right on par with any other rule in those books. Regardless of which of those official rules I choose to use in my game, I am playing the official D&D rules. I'm not house ruling anything, or the equivalent. More specifically, regardless of which rules I choose to use, my D&D isn't 'less D&D', or less official, or less whatever than anyone else's because of which rules I'm using. That was the suggestion upstream, to which I am quite opposed on principle. I don't really care about the argument that surrounds it though.

I'm very specifically not on anyone's side here, or trying to score points off you somehow. I just disagree with your reading of what 'D&D' is, and who might then be said to be 'playing D&D' or not.

You can do what you want in your own games, but it makes discussion of the rules (as presented) rather difficult.

You can do what you want in your own games, and call it what you want in your own games, but when discussing the rules as written, its sophistry to argue 'well in my games I house-rule X, so rule/ expectation Y doesnt apply to me'.

That doesnt prove that rule or expectation Y doesnt exist or apply; it just proves that you've removed rule/ expectation Y via a house rule. Rule Y still remains the default rule, and when discussing the game (and its expectations) that's the important bit to consider.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I've played a couple of campaigns up to level 20 now, they don't feel like top tier super heroes to me. They haven't saved the galaxy, they aren't gods who walk among men.

But there's a wide variety in the superhero category. Are we talking Luke Cage or Superman? Hawkeye or The Flash?

End of the day it doesn't really matter. Make the game what you want, I just wanted to chime in and say that in my game the PCs may go down in legend. Special? Extraordinary? Able to call in the equivalent of an air strike once per long rest? Sure. But superhuman? Nah.

How powerful are the regular folk in your worlds?

Because the PCs are objectively superhuman at even 11 unless you are changing what that human baseline is. They can do things that a normal human could not ever do.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I just had a 15th level TPK. That wouldn't happen to the Avengers or JLA. That said, there is a tonal shift as the PCs gain level and leave alot of "mortal" concerns behind them and as their adventures tend to get bigger in scope -- or, at least, higher in SFX budget.

TPKs could absolutely happene to the avengers or JLA. It won’t because they gotta sell more comics, but only because they gotta sell more comics.

 

[Maxperson]

Well, I am right, but not in the way you think I am. The important word is official, not option. The fact that a rule appears in the core books puts it right on par with any other rule in those books. Regardless of which of those official rules I choose to use in my game, I am playing the official D&D rules. I'm not house ruling anything, or the equivalent. More specifically, regardless of which rules I choose to use, my D&D isn't 'less D&D', or less official, or less whatever than anyone else's because of which rules I'm using. That was the suggestion upstream, to which I am quite opposed on principle. I don't really care about the argument that surrounds it though.

It's not less official. It is less default. The game makes default assumptions about the game. Those default assumptions are the default rules. When you engage one of the official options, the game is just as official, but now the game runs differently from the default. Just like when I create a house option the game runs differently from the default. The difference here is officiality.

I'm very specifically not on anyone's side here, or trying to score points off you somehow. I just disagree with your reading of what 'D&D' is, and who might then be said to be 'playing D&D' or not.

I never said or implied that anyone here might not be "playing D&D." Nor did I say or imply what "D&D is." I've only said what the default rules are.

 

[Maxperson]

TPKs could absolutely happene to the avengers or JLA. It won’t because they gotta sell more comics, but only because they gotta sell more comics.

All of them got TPK'd during Secret Wars.