D&D 5E Is Neil Gaiman Wrong?

[billd91]

You can do what you want in your own games, but it makes discussion of the rules (as presented) rather difficult.

You can do what you want in your own games, and call it what you want in your own games, but when discussing the rules as written, its sophistry to argue 'well in my games I house-rule X, so rule/ expectation Y doesnt apply to me'.

That doesnt prove that rule or expectation Y doesnt exist or apply; it just proves that you've removed rule/ expectation Y via a house rule. Rule Y still remains the default rule, and when discussing the game (and its expectations) that's the important bit to consider.

You've made it clear that you're not really reading Fenris-77's point.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Fafhrd: 15 R, 13 Th, 5 Bard
Mouser: 11 F, 3 MU, 15 Th

(Deities & Demigods- they have slightly different levels in the Lankhmar book that I don't feel like digging up now)

D&D does a really poor job of translating fictional characters.

D&D does a poor job of modeling anything other than D&D to be honest. IMO. I don't put much stock in those stats compared to what happens in the books. Which can get over the top but its always in a way that its obvious they are just hanging on and trying to ride it out more than being the drivers. I'd love to play a Lankhmar game but my player are institutionalized by the decades of D&D. Kicking in doors and looting stuff.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

What you're doing here is engaging in extreme postmodern sophistry.

Really? Postmodern sophistry*?

So it's postmodern sophistry to say, "Hey, play what you like, but don't tell me that the way you play D&D is D&D (your emphasis)," whereas it's just plain ol' plain speakin' for you to define D&D for everyone else, and to exclude the vast majority of players and DMs from D&D?

Nice.

*The extreme part is because, what, I'm snowboarding while typing? I have this weird feeling you wouldn't know postmodern if Thomas Pynchon bit you in the posterior.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

D&D does a poor job of modeling anything other than D&D to be honest. IMO. I don't put much stock in those stats compared to what happens in the books. Which can get over the top but its always in a way that its obvious they are just hanging on and trying to ride it out more than being the drivers. I'd love to play a Lankhmar game but my player are institutionalized by the decades of D&D. Kicking in doors and looting stuff.

The reason it does such a poor job modeling so many things is because those things are ... fiction. Characters in fiction tend to be able to do things as the plot demands.

The more you want your D&D to resemble fiction, the less it tends to resemble a game.

 

[Mistwell]

Can dragons be defeated?

Sure they can, but is it plausible? I know, I know, plausibility, is something subjective when we are talking about a magical fantasy world, so let me better explain where I am coming from and where am I going.

I have a player that totally despise the idea of beings from the size of a dragon's toe facing a Gargantuan Magical Intelligent beast. He can't concede on that. There is no argument, no magic weapon, no number of warriors, nothing. In his words "We would need an army, all fully equipped with very powerful weapons, and a lot of luck to get a small chance to survive. There is no such thing as a dragon hunt."

Neil Gaiman said that one of the reasons why he wrote Coraline was because he wanted to tell his kids that dragons could be defeated. He even quoted GK Chesterton on it.
So, how do you cope with that?
How do you make you dragon quests plausible and interesting?
Is my player right? Or Gaiman/Chesterton are ?
What do you think?

Just wanted to mention I appreciate the thought that went into this first post. I like the challenge pitting us against or with Gaiman and Chesterton, rather than just asking our opinion. Nicely put.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

The reason it does such a poor job modeling so many things is because those things are ... fiction. Characters in fiction tend to be able to do things as the plot demands.

The more you want your D&D to resemble fiction, the less it tends to resemble a game.

That is obvious. Which is why I keep my games away from trying to be fiction and letting game mechanics create a D&D fiction that is pretty much divorced from its source materials.

 

[Flamestrike]

Really? Postmodern sophistry*?

So it's postmodern sophistry to say, "Hey, play what you like, but don't tell me that the way you play D&D is D&D (your emphasis)," whereas it's just plain ol' plain speakin' for you to define D&D for everyone else, and to exclude the vast majority of players and DMs from D&D?

Nice.

*The extreme part is because, what, I'm snowboarding while typing? I have this weird feeling you wouldn't know postmodern if Thomas Pynchon bit you in the posterior.

I'm not referring to my rules. I'm referring to the rules. You're the one asserting that you can make DnD 'non superheroic'. via the implementation of house rules, alt rules and heavy modification of the base system.

Its actually hilarious you level this accusation against me.

DnD as written is superheroic past 10th level. Because your housrules make it less so, doesnt make that a fact.

 

[GreyLord]

We shouldn't have, but we have, as a race, killed creatures as big as a house. It didn't even take an army, but merely a harpoon and a boat full of rowers.

 

[CleverNickName]

The extreme part is because, what, I'm snowboarding while typing?

From what I can tell, an "extreme" version of something is just the regular version except you scream a lot and drink Mt. Dew while doing it.

 

[Maxperson]

The reason it does such a poor job modeling so many things is because those things are ... fiction. Characters in fiction tend to be able to do things as the plot demands.

The more you want your D&D to resemble fiction, the less it tends to resemble a game.

The entire point of the game is to create and play in a fictional story. The game and setting don't attempt mirror real life. There are degrees of realism to it, but it's still going to be fiction at the end of the day unless you get rid of the game entirely and just "play" your life.

I got up this morning and home schooled my son. That wasn't fiction. He made up a story about what kind of superhero he would be(kinda cool that his homework was on topic!). That was fiction.