D&D 5E Is Neil Gaiman Wrong?

[Mort]

We likely couldnt kill a dragon with a pointy stick.

Pretty much every member of the Avengers could.

DnD PC's are not equal to real life warriors and heroes; they're literal superheroes. You can throw an 11th level unarmed and unarmoured fighter into a bear pit with half a dozen Grizzly bears, and he wins.

If he happened to be a Monk (or armed with a sword) you could toss a dozen or more in there and he wins.

Dont judge your fantasy heroes according to the standards of real life people. These are beings that from mid level onwards control epic reality altering magic, or routinely do superhuman things; consorting with Demon Lords and Gods, travelling the planes of reality, dealing with Psionic creatures, dinosaurs, undead monsters, creatures that can literally hurl blasts of flame or project forcefields and fly, teleporting, carting around artifacts of legend etc.

Yes, I think this is on point - and if you don't want to think of D&D characters as superheroes, think of them instead as mythic heroes. There are plenty of examples of heroes in myth and story besting dragons:

Gilgamesh did it;

Perseus did it;

Jason (of Jason and the Argonauts) overcame a dragon;

Bard killed Smaug

Etc.

 

[Guest 6801328]

If gargantuan dragons walked the earth, we humans would not be where we currently stand in terms of learning and technology. Our societies would have been molded around having to try and survive when these massive flying creatures existed.

I mean, when did "humans" start gaining traction as a species? Only after the dinosaurs went extinct. Those massive carnivorous creatures that could destroy our crops, break our homes, maul us indiscriminently and resist our weapons would not have allowed us to advance in the same way we did had we had to exist together this entire time.

But dinosaurs wouldn't have been smart enough to let enough of us thrive to mine, smelt, and craft beautiful objects for them to take.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Bard killed Smaug

Coincidentally (or not) I really like how The One Ring models hard-to-kill adversaries: instead of just piling on ever more HP, it takes a fair amount of dice luck, from a pretty advanced character (preferably with really good weapons), to finish one off. And that's after their HP reach zero.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Yes, I think this is on point - and if you don't want to think of D&D characters as superheroes, think of them instead as mythic heroes. There are plenty of examples of heroes in myth and story besting dragons:

Gilgamesh did it;

Perseus did it;

Jason (of Jason and the Argonauts) overcame a dragon;

Bard killed Smaug

Etc.

But what if we just don't agree with either premise?

Many people are aware that there are already superhero RPGs out there, and if they wanted to play the Avengers, they would play one of those RPGs, not D&D.

And there are, in fact, quite a few people who aren't playing "mythic heroes." At the very least, I have no idea if any particular character is going to be "mythic" or not when I start- that's revealed through play, and choices, and all sorts of factors.

If I know going in that it's already set up to be a mythic hero, that kind of takes the fun out of playing. Might as well just read some book about a mythic hero.

 

[Mort]

But dinosaurs wouldn't have been smart enough to let enough of us thrive to mine, smelt, and craft beautiful objects for them to take.

I don't know - my son's favorite show growing up was Dinosaur Train,those dinosaurs managed a time traveling train - it was on tv so must be true!

 

[jaelis]

I personally would say that sure, in dnd a high level party can kill a dragon because that's how the dnd rules are set up. It seems straightforward to me.

But if I try to speak for those who think that a 200-hp character who jumps off a cliff will die, regardless of falling damage rules, I think the idea would be that it isn't possible in a straightforward way, and that what's happening when the players do win the fight is a lot of luck, divine favor, and other circumstances that make it possible. Think of Bard killing Smaug. There's no sense where Bard could go toe-to-toe with the dragon, but he had the skill, knowledge, equipment and luck to pull it off.

 

[Oofta]

If you're talking gargantuan dragons you're talking about ancient ones. They're over 800 years old.

So most will have been around for over a thousand years, give or take. That means that it's extremely unlikely that during any human's lifetime they will ever witness an ancient dragon's death. So in a sense, I agree with your player. Ancient dragons are extremely difficult to kill.

Probably the biggest threat to an ancient dragon is other dragons, which is why (in my world anyway) they are extremely rare. There's not much room at the top, and dragons will take out the competition before they become a real threat - or better yet throw idiot adventurers at those adult dragons that are getting uppity.

As far as being able to kill dragons, to quote Arnold from the Predator movie "If it bleeds we can kill it."

 

[Mort]

But what if we just don't agree with either premise?

Many people are aware that there are already superhero RPGs out there, and if they wanted to play the Avengers, they would play one of those RPGs, not D&D.]

And there are, in fact, quite a few people who aren't playing "mythic heroes." At the very lease, I have no idea if any particular character is going to be "mythic" or not when I start- that's revealed through play, and choices, and all sorts of factors.

If I know going in that it's already set up to be a mythic hero, that kind of takes the fun out of playing. Might as well just read some book about a mythic hero.

But the potential is there - certainly in D&D.

You don't know your character will be a mythic hero, not all, or even many make it. But my point was - some do, and they can take on a dragon head on. Are you saying D&D doesn't or shouldn't allow for that?

But Even in a non mythic scenario - maybe the point is to outsmart, trick or even just survive the dragon.

It's pretty boring to just go "well, it's a dragon, guess we're hosed - moving on"

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

But the potential is there - certainly in D&D.

You don't know your character will be a mythic hero, not all, or even many make it. But my point was - some do, and they can take on a dragon head on. Are you saying D&D doesn't or shouldn't allow for that?

But Even in a non mythic scenario - maybe the point is to outsmart, trick or even just survive the dragon.

It's pretty boring to just go "well, it's a dragon, guess we're hosed - moving on"

The thing with D&D that you can trace all the way back (see Gods, Demigods & Heroes, Deities and Demigods) is that if you give something hit points, someone is going to want to kill it.

But no, an enemy that cannot be defeated (but may have to be tricked, bypassed, or merely survived) is not boring. Far from it.

What is boring to me is the idea that everything must be defeated, that every character must be the mythic hero, the Avenger slaying Thanos.

Some things are unwinnable; at the very least, sometimes you just have to change the victory conditions.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

The dragon is designed as the definitive challenge for the monster-hunter heroe, but they are not unstoppable. If a giant crossbow could kill an elephant then a dragon can be injured. The wings are weak points. A hit while it's flying and it falls to the ground. A squad of trained archers could cause a great damage against the wings. With enough luck it could be blinded with accurate shots in the eyes. Only a injure could be fatal if this becomes infected, or too much blood is lost. The arrows could be poisoned. Could create explosive arrows with Valryan fire?

Other option would be trick it with easy preys what are poisoned.

And the dragon will not like the cold. Teorically the dragons aren't cold blood but more like warm-blood reptomammals.