Is RAISE DEAD (etc.) too readily available in most D&D campaigns?

[molonel]

I really don't want to fan the flames here, but ... don't they?

Flame fanner!

 

[I'm A Banana]

I really don't want to fan the flames here, but ... don't they?

A raise dead requires a 5,000 gp diamond. For the sake of argument, call all associated costs -- travel, bribes, gentle reposes, whatever -- another 10,000 gp. So, counting everything, a raise dead can be had for 15,000 gp.

Just because it's handy, lemme grab Stormwrack ... ships, ships, ships, yeah. A junk -- a type of small sailboat, for those unfamiliar with the term -- costs 15,000 gp.

So on the one hand, you have a small sailing vessel. On the other hand, you have a return to frickin' life.

That's not objectively cheap?

Anyway, my solution to the issue, as I see of, of "cheapened death" is just to make dying harder. It provides much the same beneficial effects of raise dead, without the "nails on chalkboard" feeling of silliness.

It's about availability, in many cases. A Junk may cost more than a raise dead, but the junk can be made by any halfway-decent shipwright. A mid-level cleric is rarer.

Now, for the party, this kind of goes out the window, but the PC's have access to a lot of things that the rest of the world can't get easily. For the PC's, this may become a regular "time to break out the diamonds" kind of scenario, but that doesn't ruin it from a world-building aspect. The PC's, even in a default world with occasional 20th level NPC's, are pretty dang special. PC's will sell or discard +2 swords when +3 versions come along, the rest of the world probably doesn't see +2 swords that often in their entire life, and would be lucky to see +3.

It can also be about cosmology. The afterlife isn't really a great mystery in D&D, it's not some great beyond through which human beings cannot pass. It's fairly well understood what happens to a spirit after death, by powerful enough spellcasters and sages. And it's known that people can come back from it, if they are of amazing cosmic power (as mid-level D&D characters are beginning to be), just as they can travel to it, summon beings from it, or destroy a soul to animate an undead monstrosity, so that the soul may never reach it.

It can also be about tone. In D&D, one could easily see a "life is cheap" kind of outlook. First-level commoners die in droves when faced with even one 2 HD gnoll, and 90% of the world is 1st-level commoners. This is why the world needs heroes, but even heroes meet their match -- there are dungeons no one ever returns from, monsters that no mortal can ever slay, dark plots that no human can hope to unravel, alien minds that no being can comprehend. There's a million ways for an average bloke to die, and a thousand ways for even that 20th-level cleric to die. If life is cheap and death is common, it won't take much of an "exchange" to get it back. The gods of death may be ravenous, but so many people are dying that their hunger is easily slaked, and they can be mislead with some bauble and some magic for a time. They will get you eventually (no spell can raise you if you die of natural age , for instance), but because your existence isn't highly valued to them, they are willing to trade for you.

These possibilities show that death doesn't have to be trivial, and even when it is, the world is still a believable and consistent place. It's about perspective (because the PC's are exceptional, death remains important for 90% of the population, but not for them), it's about cosmology (even for that 90% of the population, there is a factual empirical knowledge of the afterlife), it's about tone (the life of a first level commoner as nasty, brutish, and short, worth only a couple of diamonds to the gods).

It's only trivial if you let it be. Of course, you don't have to let it be, and you can even change the rules to make sure that coming back is nigh-impossible, but it's not necessary with a little imagination.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

Yes, I think so. My solution is to allow revivify but to get rid of raise dead, resurrection, and true resurrection.

If revivify is not equal to the task then miracle is required (with the xp penalty). IMO, if raising the dead is not a miracle, then I don't know what is.

 

[molonel]

Yes, I think so. My solution is to allow revivify but to get rid of raise dead, resurrection, and true resurrection.

If revivify is not equal to the task then miracle is required (with the xp penalty). IMO, if raising the dead is not a miracle, then I don't know what is.

That's actually not a half-bad idea.

I also might allow Revivify to work up to 10 minutes after a character's death, as the soul lingers for a short time before departing, etc.

Huh. This might become a house rule. Thank you.

 

[Lanefan]

I really don't want to fan the flames here, but ... don't they?

A raise dead requires a 5,000 gp diamond. For the sake of argument, call all associated costs -- travel, bribes, gentle reposes, whatever -- another 10,000 gp. So, counting everything, a raise dead can be had for 15,000 gp.

Just because it's handy, lemme grab Stormwrack ... ships, ships, ships, yeah. A junk -- a type of small sailboat, for those unfamiliar with the term -- costs 15,000 gp.

So on the one hand, you have a small sailing vessel. On the other hand, you have a return to frickin' life.

That price for a ship seems ridiculously high. I don't have that book, to compare what other prices they have for various ship types, but I'm almost ready to ask if that's a typo and they really mean 1500 for the junk? (even that would be high, but it's more in line...)

15,000 ought to be able to buy you a top-end Trafalgar-era ship of the line (or two), fully fitted and complete with crew to run it for a good long time.

Lanefan

 

[molonel]

That price for a ship seems ridiculously high. I don't have that book, to compare what other prices they have for various ship types, but I'm almost ready to ask if that's a typo and they really mean 1500 for the junk? (even that would be high, but it's more in line...)

15,000 ought to be able to buy you a top-end Trafalgar-era ship of the line (or two), fully fitted and complete with crew to run it for a good long time.

Lanefan

Prices for non-magical, high-end items like castles and things like that have actually never made much sense, in my opinion, in 3rd Edition. (I don't remember the prices in 1st and 2nd, and really don't care to look.)

 

[Hussar]

That price for a ship seems ridiculously high. I don't have that book, to compare what other prices they have for various ship types, but I'm almost ready to ask if that's a typo and they really mean 1500 for the junk? (even that would be high, but it's more in line...)

15,000 ought to be able to buy you a top-end Trafalgar-era ship of the line (or two), fully fitted and complete with crew to run it for a good long time.

Lanefan

Well, considering two suits of armor could cost you about 1500 gp, saying a fairly large ship costs more isn't too out of line.

But, then again, Molonel has the right of it. Pricing in D&D has very, very little to do with realism.

 

[Nightfall]

Mol,

Yes I am the winner!

Hussar,

The Scarred Lands aren't dead. Just resting.

QQ,

Correction, I don't worship Orcus. I just have a great admiration of a Demon Prince that doesn't die and likes undead.

But if the thread is indeed unressable it's not my fault!

 

[Emirikol]

I get the impression that raise dead is 3x cheaper than a sailing ship for therr reasons:

1. Players and DM's get their feelings hurt by PC death(it's happened to me in both roles)
2. Because players are not properly trained or motivated enough to make a new character
3. Because changing the level of the spell for 3E would have stepped on someones toes

How many variations od "bring back the dead" do we need?

Personally, I think it's silly that something like raise dead is so trivially cheap and readily available.

It doesn't matter that we "say" that 9th level clerics arent as common as commoners because it doesn't matter. They're there somewhere and players know it. Truth is, your DM is probably considered a great big jerk if he doesn't let you just walk over to the next big city for that "low" level spell.

jh

How many saving thows did we have in 1E? 5. How many now and why?

 

[Umbran]

It was several days ago, but before this thread got ressurected, there were several posts here that showed well below acceptable amounts of respect for fellow posters. Please treat those you converse as intelligent people who have good reasons to disagree with you. Insults and sarcastic dismissal are not appropriate debate methods.