Is RAISE DEAD (etc.) too readily available in most D&D campaigns?

[Storyteller01]

See, this is something I don't understand. "A speed bump"? 5k gp is nothing to sniff at for a very large chunk of levels. Plus, the level loss bloody well hurts. Never mind that finding a 9th level cleric who is willing to cast this for you should be a fairly decent method for grounding a group in the setting as well. You should need, at the very least, a large town where you might (1 in 6 according to the DMG) find a single 9th level cleric. In a city, it gets a bit easier, but, again, in a small city, you have a 50/50 chance (roughly) of having a single 9th level cleric. Note, finding a cleric that can cast 9th level spells requires a metropolis, and even then, you're not looking at great chances.

Easy? Not really. Not if the DM is actually paying any attention to where the PC's are within his campaign world.

Depends on your POV. Far as I'm concerned (and this is jmo), death shouldn't be a 'lose 5,000 exp and a level; start again'. The whole point of heros being heros is they risk and beat the odds. Buying a raise dead or supporting a cleric means no real risk, especially for those games that hand wave material components or don't follow DMG standards (ie most of them). This is why our party rolls AC instead of using a static number. Adds to the suspense, since nothing is guaranteed.

I'm not playing a video game where I can go buy a pheonix down at the right city. Not the story I want to be involved in, at least not with pen and paper.

EDIT: alright, the above statement MAY have been inappropriate... Sorry.

My players know ahead of time what to expect, and it's worked out well.

 

[Hussar]

Depends on your POV. Far as I'm concerned (and this is jmo), death shouldn't be a 'lose 5,000 exp and a level; start again'. The whole point of heros being heros is they risk and beat the odds. Buying a raise dead or supporting a cleric means no real risk, especially for those games that hand wave material components or don't follow DMG standards (ie most of them). Regardless of the rolls in the DMG, how many parties never find a city at the end of an adventure? How many high level clerics magically appear in a village to heal and raise characters? How long does it take to recover a level when you take the sidelines against higher CR creatures?

I'm not playing a video game where I can go buy a pheonix down at the right city. Not the story I want to be involved in, at least not with pen and paper.

My players know ahead of time what to expect, and it's worked out well.

But, every one of those issues is a DM issue, not a game one. If the DM is handwaving the cost of Raise Dead, then, that's his business. If he's chucking in random high level clerics for the sole reason of bringing back the dead, then, again, that's his business. Sure, you get the level back, but, you are still down thousands of xp against the other PC's. You will never catch up - or at least not for a very long time.

Why would you claim that the game supports this? It doesn't. The game makes raising bloody expensive and difficult.

 

[Storyteller01]

But, every one of those issues is a DM issue, not a game one. If the DM is handwaving the cost of Raise Dead, then, that's his business. If he's chucking in random high level clerics for the sole reason of bringing back the dead, then, again, that's his business. Sure, you get the level back, but, you are still down thousands of xp against the other PC's. You will never catch up - or at least not for a very long time.

Why would you claim that the game supports this? It doesn't. The game makes raising bloody expensive and difficult.

For some players it shouldn't be expensive and difficult; it should be near impossible. Getting a new car or remodelling a house is expensive and difficult. Coming back from the dead should go beyond that.

 

[IceFractal]

But actually, for a player, coming back from the dead is not only easy but guaranteed - and the only cost is sometimes, not even always, coming back a level lower. I speak, of course, of making a new character. The impact of death IRL is that you're gone, permanently. But the players aren't going to say "well, my character died, guess I have to stop playing D&D now".

What about a semantic change? What if we assume that there are a rare few people born with the "Immortal Spirit" ability, which bind their spirit more tightly than normal to their body, and allows them to come back from the dead with the right rituals. Anyone else, death is permanent. The PCs just happen to be among the few that have this ability, although they might not even know it.

It just seems like if you remove ressurection, you have to also revamp high level play significantly, because currently the assumption is that even a normal encounter at high levels can include things that flat-out kill you. And I'm not just talking save-or-die effects - some monsters do enough damage to kill full-health characters on a crit, and there's no save to avoid that.

 

[shilsen]

For some players it shouldn't be expensive and difficult; it should be near impossible. Getting a new car or remodelling a house is expensive and difficult. Coming back from the dead should go beyond that.

Why should coming back from the dead go beyond that? It does, in my game, because of flavor issues, but that's because of particular tastes of mine. I don't in any way think that my tastes mean that coming back from the dead should necessarily be very difficult or near impossible in every game or even in the core rules.

So I'm curious - why do you think coming back from the dead should be so difficult? Magic in the rules consistently makes things that are difficult or impossible in our reality quite easy to achieve. Why draw the line here, with the issue of raising from the dead?

 

[DonTadow]

My current campaign revolves around the PCs being able to (and needing to) go to places that other people are not able to go. Indeed, the PCs' ability to go to these places has been a source of amazement to others. In all the Planes, I believe there are a total of seven characters who can do this. The game revolves around these particular PCs with this ability. It might be possible for a new PC to gain this ability, but it isn't likely.

A permanent PC death would derail the campaign tremendously. And, they die. Oh they die. It's a 12th level game, after all. A failed save can end in death. I had one wizard PC death happen in round 1 before he even had a chance to act (scorching ray + dominate person the fighter). It happens. And it will just keep getting more and more common as they go up in levels.

Making PC death permanent just wouldn't work at all. As is, we gloss over the Rez for the most part. The PCs are movers after all. They know people who can do this sort of thing for them, just like they know people who can do all sorts of other helpful things.

The Players enjoy the game like that, so it can work.

Doesn't this seem to make the PCs too special. Shouldn't there be millions of other people who "know people". There'd probably never be a villian who didnt come back.

 

[Henry]

Personally, I loved the idea that Hackmaster brought in, where you have raise deads as low as SECOND SPELL LEVEL, and you have an array of them, from 2nd to 5th level. The lower the level, the more "defects" your PC will be brought back with. So if your 3rd level character dies, the party cleric CAN bring you back -- but you'll have like 1d6+1 "defects" such as a missing finger or toe, a missing ear or eye, etc. You can come back, but not without price.

 

[Hussar]

For some players it shouldn't be expensive and difficult; it should be near impossible. Getting a new car or remodelling a house is expensive and difficult. Coming back from the dead should go beyond that.

By players, I assume you mean characters. ((That your your game is WAY hardcore ;p))

Even by default RAW, coming back from the dead is very difficult. Raise dead only works if you have a full body. Any PC that dies from any number of energy attacks is not applicable. Now you're up to Resurection - 13th level caster. Given the rather large number of ways to die that don't leave you any remains, such as the PC who was swallowed whole by a sea monster who then sank after dying - you may even have to step up to True Res and that is near impossible for most campaigns.

 

[RFisher]

I don't think I have every had a (A)D&D PC raised. I had the option to have one reincarnated once, but turned it down.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

By players, I assume you mean characters. ((That your your game is WAY hardcore ;p))

Even by default RAW, coming back from the dead is very difficult. Raise dead only works if you have a full body. Any PC that dies from any number of energy attacks is not applicable. Now you're up to Resurection - 13th level caster. Given the rather large number of ways to die that don't leave you any remains, such as the PC who was swallowed whole by a sea monster who then sank after dying - you may even have to step up to True Res and that is near impossible for most campaigns.

I think the point they are making is that death occurs much less frequently in their games, due to some character saving mechanic (god roll, or something). A PC dies (and cant come back) about as frequently as someone is perma-killed in yours. Both work out to be roughly the same, theres just no stopping the show when someone rolls a 1 on a save or die until they can wrangle 5000 in diamond dust.