Is Rapid Shot more powerful than Two-Weapon Fighting?

[Kai Lord]

By the way, for anyone with sensitivities as delicate as Caliber's, since posting the original question I have reviewed the facts and come to the conclusion that PBS/RS is no more powerful than Amb/TWF. Something you might want to keep in mind if having your reply countered makes you think the other person can only be "upset."

 

[Caliber]

You're the one getting all defensive and copping an attitude, but I am the delicate oversenstive one? Riiiight.

Here is some news for you. Not all feats are made equal. The designers have said it themselves. A 1st level Fighter who has Endurance and Run is NOT equal to a 1st level Fighter who has Weapon Focus and Power Attack.

Your original question was whether Rapid Shot was equal to Two-Weapon Fighting. It isn't. Rapid Shot allows an extra attack at -2, something Two-Weapon Fighting only does when combined with Ambidexterity.

Thus, Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting are equivalent to Rapid Shot. Its not a difficult concept to understand.

 

[Kai Lord]

You're the one getting all defensive and copping an attitude, but I am the delicate oversenstive one? Riiiight.

Here's my entire response to you, to which in turn you stated "Don't ask whether something is balanced and then get upset when people tell you it isn't."

quote:
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Originally posted by Caliber
Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting are the equivalent of Rapid Shot together. Together they both do the same thing Rapid Shot does alone.
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If that were the case then Rapid Shot would allow a character to use his off-hand to perform a skill or attack. It doesn't.


quote:
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Originally posted by Caliber
Trading out one for Rapid Shot isn't grossly unbalancing, but it IS unbalanced.
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People seem to be under the impression that Ambidexterity is worthless by itself. By that logic then Ambidexerity+Rapid Shot is no more powerful than Rapid Shot by itself. That's not true. The Ranger gets three feats at first level. Regardless of how often anyone thinks they will be used, or how useful they will be when used, for a character who wanted to become a TW Fighter, they just saved him two feat slots right off the bat.

Rapid Shot also requires two feats, because it has a prerequisite. So either way, we're talking two slots for the same effect with different weapons.

The 1st level Ranger offers +1 BAB, +2 Fort save, two virtual feats that any character could conceivably get at that level, and Track. I'm not advocating changing one single element of that, and the Customization rules on page 94 of the PHB fully allow for changes in flavor.

Wow, I was just foaming at the mouth, wasn't I? If that truly offended your delicate sensitivities, then I apologize, but I think its obvious you just threw the "don't get upset" line in there as a smokescreen to cover the fact that you really weren't doing a very good job defending your point. I can only assume your next response will dismiss Rapid Shot as broken.

Here is some news for you. Not all feats are made equal. The designers have said it themselves. A 1st level Fighter who has Endurance and Run is NOT equal to a 1st level Fighter who has Weapon Focus and Power Attack.

No, they aren't equal. But what you're offering to counter my Ranger customization is like a DM looking at two new character sheets made by a couple of his players and saying, "Hmm, you chose Endurance and Run. Okay. Whoa! You chose Weapon Focus and Power Attack. Any one of those is better than both of the first character's feats put together so you're going to have to just choose one of them."

I realize that you weren't presuming to tell me not to swap the feat, but as said before, in every single melee engagement, Amb/TWF is the better combo. And how are most fights conducted?

Your original question was whether Rapid Shot was equal to Two-Weapon Fighting. It isn't. Rapid Shot allows an extra attack at -2, something Two-Weapon Fighting only does when combined with Ambidexterity.

Thus, Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting are equivalent to Rapid Shot. Its not a difficult concept to understand.

Please list the page where it states that Rapid Shot lets you perform skills with your off-hand, or fire your bow with either hand. Or that it only takes one feat to make an extra attack with a bow.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

For all that I was going to post and say you were right and I was wrong (about the modifying classes bit being in the PH), now you're jumping all over Caliber, Kai Lord. And he's right.

Note that a Ranger's ambidexterity doesn't do any of the things that you are claiming for it either. A ranger "may fight with two weapons" as if he had ambidexterity and two weapon fighting. The ranger does not have ambidexterity and two weapon fighting for any other purpose. (Arguably) not for drawing both weapons as a part of a move equivalent action. (Definitely) Not for performing skill checks with an off hand. A ranger possesses ambidexterity for no purpose other than fighting with two weapons (and, according to the Sage and splatbooks, fulfilling prerequisites).

As to the question of whether exchanging even both ambidexterity and two weapon fighting for rapid shot would make your character more powerful--well, you want to do it don't you? From what I gather, your character is focussed around archery. The proposed exchange will help him focus his abilities even more on archery. In DnD 3e, focussed characters are more powerful than generalist characters. Therefore, your character will be more powerful when he is more focussed.

Really, this has very little to do with the fact that rapid shot is more powerful than TWF (considered by itself). What it has to do with is the question: should your character be able to trade useless (to him) class features for ones that are useful to him. Would you let a wizard trade scribe scroll for greater spell focus? How about a fighter/cleric trade his fighter heavy and medium armor proficiencies for weapon focus or power attack? So why should a ranger archer be able to take Rapid Shot instead of TWF?

 

[Kai Lord]

For all that I was going to post and say you were right and I was wrong (about the modifying classes bit being in the PH), now you're jumping all over Caliber, Kai Lord. And he's right.

Oh, I'm not just jumping all over him. I set fire to his house as well. With this response hopefully I can take over the world. Every time I post an angry smiley, somewhere in the world a puppy dies.

Note that a Ranger's ambidexterity doesn't do any of the things that you are claiming for it either. A ranger "may fight with two weapons" as if he had ambidexterity and two weapon fighting. The ranger does not have ambidexterity and two weapon fighting for any other purpose. (Arguably) not for drawing both weapons as a part of a move equivalent action. (Definitely) Not for performing skill checks with an off hand. A ranger possesses ambidexterity for no purpose other than fighting with two weapons (and, according to the Sage and splatbooks, fulfilling prerequisites).

That's a very good point. Hell its damn good. Almost like as a Ranger becomes a Ranger he gets specially tuned to his surroundings and his own body and gets this cool sort of equilibrium about him. Virtual Ambidexterity and TWF is just a byproduct of that, rather than every single freaking Ranger specifically training with two weapons because of a universal affinity for the style. That's what I couldn't get around. I just took them as full-on feats, with the "virtual" part having only to do with the armor restriction.

I probably won't swap anything out now, and leave the character as is. Thanks. He's always been powerful, it just looked weird seeing TWF on his sheet for reasons already mentioned. Now it kind of makes sense.

 

[Shallown]

I think this customizing is balanced as long as you maintain the same restrictions (light armor load etc)

Rapid shot and PBS may seem more powerful as do most higher level archers. They can get real nasty to hits etc. But remember that choices when shooting are limited. I can hit and do damage. In melee I can trip, disarm, sunder , bullrush etc as part of melee combat.

Just my two cents.