Vaalingrade
Legend
The Stealth rules.What's bad about perception vs. stealth to determine surprise?
The Stealth rules.What's bad about perception vs. stealth to determine surprise?
Yeah the issue with stealth is that its vague in 5e. Which wouldn't be such a problem except that as already discussed....surprise is a BIG deal. Like a REALLY BIG deal. So you have a vague mechanic that can also trigger the most powerful combat shift in the game....that's when it gets problematic.The Stealth rules.
Reasonable question.Coming off one of the many perception threads as well as being in the process of writing up a lot of the minutia rules for my own system, I'm struck by the thought that... maybe surprise is not worth having as a mechanic.
Okay. That's not the surprise rules, though. I personally find the surprise rules to be just fine.The Stealth rules.
I think, though, that a table will quickly clarify for itself how stealth works and will remain consistent with that procedure.Yeah the issue with stealth is that its vague in 5e. Which wouldn't be such a problem except that as already discussed....surprise is a BIG deal. Like a REALLY BIG deal. So you have a vague mechanic that can also trigger the most powerful combat shift in the game....that's when it gets problematic.
Reactions only. No actions or bonus actions.Reasonable question.
I'm a little surprised to see that you feel it has minimal impact, although those surprised are allowed bonus actions in the first round rather than nothing at all.
It's very important as the encounters are balanced around damage output vs. hit points. A free round of damage output is huge.I don't know 5e well enough to comment on how much that mitigates being surprised. Having a round or two of attacks before a meaningful response seems major- does your group not pursue attempting to surprise, or do you find that when they do they don't gain much advantage from it?
This depends on the players and group. My group usually has one stealth guy that scouts ahead. If he finds a danger, he will go back and they will make a plan to avoid, a plan to parlay, or a plan to try and surprise it. Of course, for some reason they are content to just sit there for an hour while he scouts, too.Does a game need surprise mechanics? No. In my experience, surprise happens rarely for the players, but being surprised happens from time to time. If you already have rules for being attacked by an opponent that you were unaware of, they aren't really necessary either- though when you start an encounter and have everyone roll initiative, and ask players what they want to do if they haven't spotted any enemies, that can be a little strange, which is probably why a mechanic that prevents people from acting exists.
yes but may clarify to a set of rules that turns out to be exceptionally OPI think, though, that a table will quickly clarify for itself how stealth works and will remain consistent with that procedure.
Yeah. But........if they are having fun, it really doesn't matter, and if they aren't they will change it. We all made mistakes when we started out and fixed them as we went along. All games, even ones like 5e, having learning curves.yes but may clarify to a set of rules that turns out to be exceptionally OP
Yes, I believe surprise mechanics are pertinent, if only to offer a tactical element with clear mechanics in theatre-of-the-mind play.Also, for everyone else: the question isn't whether it's worth getting surprise, but whether it's worth having it as a mechanic from a design standpoint.
I think keeping surprise as a mechanic is worth it, but I agree it is often minimal because typically less than half the surprised side is actually surprised.Coming off one of the many perception threads as well as being in the process of writing up a lot of the minutia rules for my own system, I'm struck by the thought that... maybe surprise is not worth having as a mechanic.
The practical upshot is that it adds a level of tactics to the proceedings and possible variety to encounters. Then there's rogue-like characters who get some sort of alpha strike ability for acting in surprise.
On the other hand, it requires engaging the already historically janky Stealth minigame for one round of minimally different combat a small percentage out of the total combats in the game.
Now, obviously, it can be redesigned, but there's still the matter of it being something that comes up in a fraction of combats unless the players are actively trying to do it all the time.
I'm hoping 2024 brings revised surprise rules.But the question is: is it worth devoting time redesigning and writing up a new set of surprise rules for the minimal effect it actually has? and if One were to redesign it, what would you want to do with it?
I'm going to engage in just a bit of premise rejection here - in my experience the surprise rules are far less often used by the players trying to gain surprise on monsters, and far more often used by DMs whose monsters are trying to gain surprise on the PCs. Because the PCs are often noisy groups whose actions echo down the hallways and alert people that they're there, who can then lurk in wait to see if they want to try to attack them or avoid them. The number of times across all editions where I've used surprise rules because the players were intentionally trying to set up an ambush or even just move stealthily are dwarfed by the number of times I've had to use the surprise rules because the PCs had caused some kind of alert to be raised.Now, obviously, it can be redesigned, but there's still the matter of it being something that comes up in a fraction of combats unless the players are actively trying to do it all the time. But the question is: is it worth devoting time redesigning and writing up a new set of surprise rules for the minimal effect it actually has? and if One were to redesign it, what would you want to do with it?
Nice to read you again.Coming off one of the many perception threads as well as being in the process of writing up a lot of the minutia rules for my own system, I'm struck by the thought that... maybe surprise is not worth having as a mechanic.
The practical upshot is that it adds a level of tactics to the proceedings and possible variety to encounters. Then there's rogue-like characters who get some sort of alpha strike ability for acting in surprise.
On the other hand, it requires engaging the already historically janky Stealth minigame for one round of minimally different combat a small percentage out of the total combats in the game.
Now, obviously, it can be redesigned, but there's still the matter of it being something that comes up in a fraction of combats unless the players are actively trying to do it all the time. But the question is: is it worth devoting time redesigning and writing up a new set of surprise rules for the minimal effect it actually has? and if One were to redesign it, what would you want to do with it?
We tried it about a year ago for a bit, 3 of us liked it but the other 2 players slowed things down enough that we went back to a single initiative at the start of combat. I prefer round to round.We roll round to round in my game. We tried RAW for a campaign(year or so) and we all decided it was more fun to roll per round. Surprise stil made a significant difference in that first campaign.
It sounds to me like this is where your issue really lies then. The question is less “is surprise worth having a mechanic for?” and more “are stealth mechanics worth the design effort to fix?” And the answer kinda depends on the game you’re designing. If it’s a game about sneaking around in dark, monster-filled dungeons and trying to escape with their treasure and your lives, then absolutely. If it’s a game about larger than life heroes who fearlessly confront deadly perils head-on, then maybe not. If your game has a character archetype based on subtlety, like a thief, assassin, spy, infiltrator, etc. then you probably want some way for the system to handle that, but it could be specific to the archetype instead of a universal mechanic, if sneaking around is otherwise not a very important element of your game.The Stealth rules.
For me the 5E surprise rules read pretty cut and dry and appear to work in theory but in practice I always get tripped up on them as DM when trying to implement them in game.But how do you determine surprise? That's part of my issue, being that you have to use an already bad mechanic to engage surprise right now.
They seem really straightforward and usable to me, but it’s plain to see that I am the significant minority in that, so it’s hard to argue they wouldn’t benefit from some kind of clarification.For me the 5E surprise rules read pretty cut and dry and appear to work in theory but in practice I always get tripped up on them as DM when trying to implement them in game.