D&D General Is Surprise worth it as a mechanic?

[Ancalagon]

I would be rather disappointed with a game that had no rule elements that concerned surprise in some form. Ambushes are both from a fantasy and historical perspective quite important.

edit: It's 100% legit to ask ourselves if the surprise rules work, do they make sense, are they too good (or too paltry) for the ambushers, is it factually impossible to set an ambush because of wonky stealth rules etc etc etc... but there absolutely should be rules!

 

[Vaalingrade]

So there's the thing: isn't it just enough to get the first mover advantage rather than a bunch of extra checks and special triggers?

 

[payn]

I thought the surprise round of 3E/PF1 always did the trick for me.

 

[Quickleaf]

One trick I tried was reinterpreting what Surprise means – instead of free attacks, it means you get to choose your starting positioning and a few aspects of terrain. As opposed to the GM entirely deciding/rolling these things.

It was a one-off that used an entirely homebrew system far simpler than 5e, but I kind of liked the creativity this approach inspired.

 

[James Gasik]

Personally, here's what I'd do. Bring back the Flat-Footed condition. If you have yet to take an action in a combat, you grant advantage to those attacking you.

Then, if you are surprised, you have disadvantage on Initiative. Everyone gets to act still, but you can still be caught with your pants down.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Personally, here's what I'd do. Bring back the Flat-Footed condition. If you have yet to take an action in a combat, you grant advantage to those attacking you.

Then, if you are surprised, you have disadvantage on Initiative. Everyone gets to act still, but you can still be caught with your pants down.

But how do you determine surprise? That's part of my issue, being that you have to use an already bad mechanic to engage surprise right now.

 

[James Gasik]

But how do you determine surprise? That's part of my issue, being that you have to use an already bad mechanic to engage surprise right now.

Oh, I see what you mean. Here's how I'd do it, personally.

If a creature enters the sensory range of another creature (defined by the DM, since I don't recall if the game has set ranges for vision, hearing, or scent by default), roll a Perception check using the passive Stealth of that creature as the DC. If you fail, you are surprised, see my previous post. If you succeed, you are not surprised.

If the creature was actively being stealthy, then whatever the active Stealth rolled by the creature is now the DC of the Perception check.

Note that if one creature has a wider sensory range than the other, surprise can be determined for one before it is determined by the other- in this case, one creature can be automatically surprised if an attack is launched before an opponent enters their sensory range.

This rule allows even an actively stealthy creature to be surprised by a creature who is just walking around with the appropriate level of caution, or two creatures to be surprised by one another, etc..

 

[Stalker0]

I agree. Surprise often has far more than a minimal effect. An entire round where only 1 side gets to act is often huge.

I think huge underestimates it, if surprise actually happens in a fight it is THE single greatest contributor to the combat difficulty. An encounter swings like 5 CR numbers (hell maybe more) if surprise occurs.

Now in terms of "is it worth it", I think players expect there to be mechanics for ambushes. First, ambushing is a very important part of real world combat (the entire combat model of the Navy Seals is stealth and ambushing, if the enemy actually gets a chance to fire at you your doing it wrong). Second, its a common narrative trope, and the classic rogue class is built around the sneaky guy who gets the drop on people.

So there needs to be SOME mechanic for ambushing. You could go as low as advantage on initiative checks, or maybe just advantage on the first round of combat, maybe extra damage, etc. But you have to have something tangible.

 

[Maxperson]

But how do you determine surprise? That's part of my issue, being that you have to use an already bad mechanic to engage surprise right now.

What's bad about perception vs. stealth to determine surprise?

 

[Vaalingrade]

Oh, I see what you mean. Here's how I'd do it, personally.

If a creature enters the sensory range of another creature (defined by the DM, since I don't recall if the game has set ranges for vision, hearing, or scent by default), roll a Perception check using the passive Stealth of that creature as the DC. If you fail, you are surprised, see my previous post. If you succeed, you are not surprised.

If the creature was actively being stealthy, then whatever the active Stealth rolled by the creature is now the DC of the Perception check.

Note that if one creature has a wider sensory range than the other, surprise can be determined for one before it is determined by the other- in this case, one creature can be automatically surprised if an attack is launched before an opponent enters their sensory range.

This rule allows even an actively stealthy creature to be surprised by a creature who is just walking around with the appropriate level of caution, or two creatures to be surprised by one another, etc..

So build that into a rebuild of the Stealth mechanic? Reasonable.

Also, for everyone else: the question isn't whether it's worth getting surprise, but whether it's worth having it as a mechanic from a design standpoint.