D&D General Is Surprise worth it as a mechanic?

[jmartkdr2]

IMO:

If the players (or enemies!) set up a successful ambush, then they should get a big advantage - maybe they all get a free attack before initiative is rolled. This is likely to be a big deal in terms of how hard the fight is - but then again, setting up an ambush against wary foes is tough to do. This shouldn't be a simple roll of stealth vs. perception - the ambushers should be actively describing how they hide in a way that lets them watch for the approaching enemies. It should be a whole scene by itself.

Assassins assassinating shouldn't use combat rules at all. That's a skill challenge.

In short - surprise should be a rare occurrence and treated as a special case when it does show up. So dedicated surprise mechanics are a no.

 

[R_J_K75]

They seem really straightforward and usable to me, but it’s plain to see that I am the significant minority in that, so it’s hard to argue they wouldn’t benefit from some kind of clarification.

I understand why they made the "surprise roll" passive perception or a perception check so they didnt need to introduce another micro-mechanic into the game with a surprise roll but I'd prefer if they did. I dont like the passive mechanic as it seems that the players sometimes have no chance to not be surprised. It's one of those things I just kind of started adjudicating rather than running RAW, which still doesnt seem right to me and so I end up not using surprise more often than not.

 

[Charlaquin]

I understand why they made the "surprise roll" passive perception or a perception check so they didnt need to introduce another micro-mechanic into the game with a surprise roll but I'd prefer if they did. I dont like the passive mechanic as it seems that the players sometimes have no chance to not be surprised. It's one of those things I just kind of started adjudicating rather than running RAW, which still doesnt seem right to me and so I end up not using surprise more often than not.

If the monsters have to roll stealth against the PCs’ passive perceptions then they definitely did get a chance to not be surprised. You could just think of it as the surprise roll being modified by the monsters’ stealth and the PCs’ perception, which certainly feels verisimilar to me. But like I said, I seem to be in the minority as someone who thinks the stealth mechanics are fine as-is.

 

[Charlaquin]

For most of the D&D Next playtest, being surprised just gave you a -10 to your initiative roll. It was very simple and easy to use, while still being pretty advantageous to the surprising party. You could try bringing that back.

 

[James Gasik]

For most of the D&D Next playtest, being surprised just gave you a -10 to your initiative roll. It was very simple and easy to use, while still being pretty advantageous to the surprising party. You could try bringing that back.

Ugh, don't remind me. I don't know why I bothered to be part of that playtest. So much that was good wasn't even considered for the final product.

 

[CleverNickName]

I allow a Surprise Round in my homebrew setting. If you're interested in how they're done:

• A "surprise round" triggers when one group's Stealth beats another group's Perception score, and the stealthy group decides to attack.
• A surprise round takes place immediately before Initiative is rolled.
• The attacking group can only take a single action (no bonus actions or movement, unless they Dash) during the surprise round.
• The surprised group can only use Reactions during the surprise round.
• Once all actions have been resolved, the we roll initiative.

It's not perfect, but we like it.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Coming off one of the many perception threads as well as being in the process of writing up a lot of the minutia rules for my own system, I'm struck by the thought that... maybe surprise is not worth having as a mechanic.

The practical upshot is that it adds a level of tactics to the proceedings and possible variety to encounters. Then there's rogue-like characters who get some sort of alpha strike ability for acting in surprise.

On the other hand, it requires engaging the already historically janky Stealth minigame for one round of minimally different combat a small percentage out of the total combats in the game.

Now, obviously, it can be redesigned, but there's still the matter of it being something that comes up in a fraction of combats unless the players are actively trying to do it all the time. But the question is: is it worth devoting time redesigning and writing up a new set of surprise rules for the minimal effect it actually has? and if One were to redesign it, what would you want to do with it?

To answer the thread title: No, not really.

Specifically the terrible and often silly way 5E handles it is a waste of everyone's time.

 

[Charlaquin]

Ugh, don't remind me. I don't know why I bothered to be part of that playtest. So much that was good wasn't even considered for the final product.

Yeah, I feel you. I assume it must have been considered but for whatever reason didn’t make it through the playtest gauntlet. They started maximally ambitious and whittled down to the most broadly accepted, which is sure to be disappointing if you liked the more ambitious ideas (which I often did).

 

[Shiroiken]

Depends on the edition. In AD&D surprise was huge, potentially making a tough fight trivial or swinging an easy fight to a deadly one. I recall it being just important in BECMI, but I don't fully remember. I want to say that surprise was a lot less important in 3E, and almost irrelevant in 4E. In 5E it's more important, but nowhere near the level of AD&D.

Something they should do in 5.5 (or whatever) is to make Surprised a condition. Too many people still think there's a surprise round, but 5E is the first edition to just put it as the first round of combat with those surprised just skipping their first turn.

 

[James Gasik]

Depends on the edition. In AD&D surprise was huge, potentially making a tough fight trivial or swinging an easy fight to a deadly one. I recall it being just important in BECMI, but I don't fully remember. I want to say that surprise was a lot less important in 3E, and almost irrelevant in 4E. In 5E it's more important, but nowhere near the level of AD&D.

Something they should do in 5.5 (or whatever) is to make Surprised a condition. Too many people still think there's a surprise round, but 5E is the first edition to just put it as the first round of combat with those surprised just skipping their first turn.

Surprise was huge in 3.5, not only because of Rogues, who could deliver massive sneak attack damage, but in general, due to how much you could get away with if you got to go first in general after awhile. High level 3.5 battles were called "rocket tag" for a reason.

 

[Shiroiken]

Surprise was huge in 3.5, not only because of Rogues, who could deliver massive sneak attack damage, but in general, due to how much you could get away with if you got to go first in general after awhile. High level 3.5 battles were called "rocket tag" for a reason.

Didn't 3.5 have the "half turn" surprise round, or was that 3E? While amazing for spellcasters that seldom move unless they have to, it sucked for martials (kinda like the whole edition). AD&D was often a game of rocket tag too, since HP were much, much lower and you had little control over your initiative modifier.

 

[James Gasik]

3.5 did, but you were allowed to make a "partial charge" as a standard action, moving your speed and making an attack. Or more attacks if you could pounce. There were builds devoted to charging without pounce, called "uberchargers" that could deal more damage than anything else in the game.

3.5 didn't suck so much for martials as one might suppose, but it did force them to specialize with very complex builds, at least until the Tome of Battle came out. Which made playing martials fun and easy, but some people didn't like the paradigm shift or the flavor of their abilities and were quite vocal about it.

 

[RuinousPowers]

I always preferred the idea behind the earlier editions' surprise rules, where surprise wasn't just limited to thieves.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I agree. Surprise often has far more than a minimal effect. An entire round where only 1 side gets to act is often huge.

I think you’re right. At low level you cannot survive more than an attack; at higher levels, people start slinging spells.

Going first can matter.

 

[Vaalingrade]

For most of the D&D Next playtest, being surprised just gave you a -10 to your initiative roll. It was very simple and easy to use, while still being pretty advantageous to the surprising party. You could try bringing that back.

Once again, impressive competence from the Playtest.

Hmm...

I'm not thinking about Simple Surprise, being -10 to initiative if you fail the detect an enemy before an attack.

But then we have the Ambush skill challenge, where PCs can set up an ambush and impose Flatfooted on surprised enemies for the first round of combat. And the Ambushed! challenge for the reverse where enemies do it. Neither require just Perception checks to resolve.

Monsters are already covered as Stalker class monsters in my system already have the Ambusher quality that grants bonus damage to targets with certain conditions ala Sneak Attack.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Surprise is worth it as you need some form of mechanic to emulate the result of ambush for both sides.

I quite like 5E Surprise rules as they don't grant an advantage to the ambusher beyond being unseen or hidden so much as they impede on the ability to act/react by surprised creature. I would have went a step further and made Surprised a condition.