D&D General Is Surprise worth it as a mechanic?

[Vaalingrade]

What's bad about perception vs. stealth to determine surprise?

The Stealth rules.

 

[Stalker0]

The Stealth rules.

Yeah the issue with stealth is that its vague in 5e. Which wouldn't be such a problem except that as already discussed....surprise is a BIG deal. Like a REALLY BIG deal. So you have a vague mechanic that can also trigger the most powerful combat shift in the game....that's when it gets problematic.

 

[James Gasik]

Does a game need surprise mechanics? No. In my experience, surprise happens rarely for the players, but being surprised happens from time to time. If you already have rules for being attacked by an opponent that you were unaware of, they aren't really necessary either- though when you start an encounter and have everyone roll initiative, and ask players what they want to do if they haven't spotted any enemies, that can be a little strange, which is probably why a mechanic that prevents people from acting exists.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Coming off one of the many perception threads as well as being in the process of writing up a lot of the minutia rules for my own system, I'm struck by the thought that... maybe surprise is not worth having as a mechanic.

Reasonable question.

I'm a little surprised to see that you feel it has minimal impact, although those surprised are allowed bonus actions in the first round rather than nothing at all. I don't know 5e well enough to comment on how much that mitigates being surprised. Having a round or two of attacks before a meaningful response seems major- does your group not pursue attempting to surprise, or do you find that when they do they don't gain much advantage from it?

My group tries to gain surprise with around a third of combats; it depends on whether their mood is "fair fights are for suckers" or "kneel before our badassery". I believe that rogues don't really need surprise anymore to get their sneak attack bonus, double-teaming a target is sufficient, yes? I guess it would depend on what role you see ambushes playing in your game. That could be reduced to "we plan an ambush", "okay- team roll of active vs passive skill- go!" Winner gets a benny of some sort?

 

[Maxperson]

The Stealth rules.

Okay. That's not the surprise rules, though. I personally find the surprise rules to be just fine.

As for stealth, rolling a stealth check vs. perception or passive perception seems okay to me, though I think I'd prefer if it were an active roll and passive stayed out of it.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah the issue with stealth is that its vague in 5e. Which wouldn't be such a problem except that as already discussed....surprise is a BIG deal. Like a REALLY BIG deal. So you have a vague mechanic that can also trigger the most powerful combat shift in the game....that's when it gets problematic.

I think, though, that a table will quickly clarify for itself how stealth works and will remain consistent with that procedure.

 

[Maxperson]

Reasonable question.

I'm a little surprised to see that you feel it has minimal impact, although those surprised are allowed bonus actions in the first round rather than nothing at all.

Reactions only. No actions or bonus actions.

I don't know 5e well enough to comment on how much that mitigates being surprised. Having a round or two of attacks before a meaningful response seems major- does your group not pursue attempting to surprise, or do you find that when they do they don't gain much advantage from it?

It's very important as the encounters are balanced around damage output vs. hit points. A free round of damage output is huge.

 

[Maxperson]

Does a game need surprise mechanics? No. In my experience, surprise happens rarely for the players, but being surprised happens from time to time. If you already have rules for being attacked by an opponent that you were unaware of, they aren't really necessary either- though when you start an encounter and have everyone roll initiative, and ask players what they want to do if they haven't spotted any enemies, that can be a little strange, which is probably why a mechanic that prevents people from acting exists.

This depends on the players and group. My group usually has one stealth guy that scouts ahead. If he finds a danger, he will go back and they will make a plan to avoid, a plan to parlay, or a plan to try and surprise it. Of course, for some reason they are content to just sit there for an hour while he scouts, too.

 

[Stalker0]

I think, though, that a table will quickly clarify for itself how stealth works and will remain consistent with that procedure.

yes but may clarify to a set of rules that turns out to be exceptionally OP

 

[Maxperson]

yes but may clarify to a set of rules that turns out to be exceptionally OP

Yeah. But........if they are having fun, it really doesn't matter, and if they aren't they will change it. We all made mistakes when we started out and fixed them as we went along. All games, even ones like 5e, having learning curves.