Is the adventuring day longer in 4th Ed?

[0-hr]

I'm a 3.5 guy thinking about the 4.0 move and have a question about the "short adventuring day" problem. I figure that now people have had a chance to play to the mid levels, they can give some solid input on the issue.

For example at level 9 or so, does having only 3 dailies make you want to rest sooner, or does also having a few 'enounter' and a couple 'at will' powers make you want to continue longer? Or maybe it is the healing surges (or something else alltogether) that drives when the group want to camp?

Compared to 3.5, does your group adventure longer before calling it a day?

This is one of those things that really bugs me in 3.5 and that I was hoping would be cured in 4.0, then I saw that it was still full of dailies. As an aside, I also play Star Wars Saga and really like they way that game handles powers (and most things).

 

[WalterKovacs]

In general, it's the healing surges, more so than the dailies, that determine the length of the adventuring day. In a party of 5th level adventurers, they each have only 2 daily powers [plus they have some magic items with their own daily powers].

In the most recent session, they completed their 6th encounter of that "day" before taking the extended rest. That one was mostly a result of the Wights draining off their remaining healing surges during the fight.

For the most part, the group hold back on using their daily powers. There is always risk that they miss, and while some are reliable, or do half damage on a miss, there are a few that do very little to help. In general, they wait to see an elite in the fight before they pull out the daily, and even then they try to set up a good situation to use it, and try to have it be one that will help in that particular fight. The party was up against a monster with 25 AC and 20+ for his other defenses ... so the warlord went for the Lead the Attack, which gave the party a +5 to hit it ... greatly improving their chances.

The way that magic items work, action points and milestones, etc ... make going for more encounters a bit more interesting. If you build up some milestones without activating any magic items, you can actually get to use multiple during he same fight, more than you'd be able to do in the morning.

It is VERY hard to use up all your surges in single encounter ... if only because of the limited ways to use up surges IN an encounter. That's basically what's really nice about 4e. In 3.5 the idea was encounters would drain resources, and the "last fight of the day" would be hard because you only have so much left. With 4e, every fight can be hard because, while you have TONS of healing surges ... you each have 1 second wind, plus a few other ways to trigger them [potions, a certain number of words per leader, some other powers]. A party could be on the brink of death in an encounter, and be able to bounce back afterwards and continuing adventuring.

 

[mattdm]

So far my players have done five to six encounters per adventuring day. This is in contrast with two or three (or sometimes just one) with the same group in 3E. So I'd say it's working.

It has the odd effect that the characters level every other day in-game. But best not think too hard about that — we play every two weeks, so it's several months in the real world between levels.

 

[MrMyth]

The adventuring day definitely feels like it can go longer in 4E. In 3.5, I found the issue was not just characters going nova early on, but actively running out of what was needed to continue after a few fights. I rarely saw a group go beyond 3 encounters in a day. In 4E, on the other hand, I rarely see them go through less than that.

I am currently in a group going through Thunderspire Labyrinth, and we tend to rest after 4 or 5 encounters - however, we recently found ourselves with some urgency and a time limit to prevent something bad. As such, we've avoided an extended rest, even between several sessions (despite normally resting at the end of each session, simply for convenience.) Until I tallied it up, I didn't realize that we had been through some 8 encounters already - and we still have several ahead of us, but we dare not rest. We've been conserving resources and being as efficient as possible with healing, and no one is yet tapped out - but even with what we've been through so far, we're still able to push on. Everyone can still contribute.

That is the important part. Yes, there is still the ability to nova that there was in 3.5, and some groups will take advantage of that. But there is no longer a cap after which certain characters become useless, which means, until you run out of healing, the party can continue through many encounters while everyone still remains largely effective.

 

[caul]

kind of on topic with this, I personally am confused about milestones. I know you get one after two encounters without stopping for an extended rest, but then do you get one after the third encounter, and each subsequent encounter, or the fourth and each even subsequent encounter?

 

[Nail]

kind of on topic with this, I personally am confused about milestones. I know you get one after two encounters without stopping for an extended rest, but then do you get one after the third encounter, and each subsequent encounter, or the fourth and each even subsequent encounter?

Your PCs (usually!) get one every other encounter. That is, after the 2nd, 4th, 6th encounters.

Of course, sometimes the DM forgets to hand 'em out. Ya gotta remind the little bugger once in a while.

 

[Zsig]

From my experience (at least with my groups), players will save their dailies for the tough fights.

If you throw at them tough fights they will spend their dailies and probably will want to rest afterwards.

So, the question is really up to the DM.

If you want the "short adventuring day" to keep happening, just throw lots of tough fights.

If you don't, throw some easy/moderate fights first.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Yes, I think the adventuring day has been longer. The daily limit are always the healing surges, rarely the daily powers.

The healing triggers define the encounter difficulty - if you have needed them all and the party still takes damage, the encounter was very difficult. But you can still go on afterwards - if you survived.

It looks to us as if it wouldn't be the worst idea to occasionally "sacrifice" a daily power to finish a combat sooner with less healing surge expenditure. Some powers are still best reserved for Elites and Solos, of course - basically all that apply to only one target, but last a longer duration.

 

[Victim]

4e doesn't provide a whole lot of game mechanic incentives not to nova and rest. Taking an extended rest after every round gets you all your surges, dailies, and AP back.

On the other hand, if you do want to press on over a number of encounters, 4e does seem to provide sufficient tools that a party can usually go on a while. Our group generally hasn't had any problems knocking out 5-7 encounters before resting.

 

[MrMyth]

4e doesn't provide a whole lot of game mechanic incentives not to nova and rest. Taking an extended rest after every round gets you all your surges, dailies, and AP back.

On the other hand, if you do want to press on over a number of encounters, 4e does seem to provide sufficient tools that a party can usually go on a while. Our group generally hasn't had any problems knocking out 5-7 encounters before resting.

This post does a great job summarizing what I was trying to say above. 4E makes the longer adventuring day possible, though it does not mandate it. And honestly, short of removing daily abilities entirely, there will always be players who want to "nova and rest."

The fact that you can only take an extended rest once a day, plus the presence of milestones, at-will/encounter powers and healing surges, provides a solid framework that encourages characters not to feel afraid to keep moving forward. It doesn't punish them for not doing so - but really, that domain falls to the DM, who can rely on time limits, ambushes at night or other difficulties if players seem to be relying too heavily on constant resting.