D&D 5E Is the Default Playstyle of 5E "Monty Haul?"

dave2008

Legend
I am not sure what you mean by this:
In my two groups currently playing 5E, I have the following:
  • A 3rd level party that functions around 7th level.
  • A 7th level party that functions around 14th level.
But depending on the number of players a 3rd level party should be challenged*, RAW, by a CR 8 (for 3 PCs), CR 9 (for 4 PCs), or a CR 10 (for 5 PCs) encounter. So it sounds like your group is basically a little below average if I understand what your saying.

*By "Challenged" I mean the group will likely lose significant resources (50%+ of HP, spell slots, or other resources). "Challenged" is m term, but the CR values are RAW based on expected XP per day from the DMG. I find this level of threat make the group want to recover or avoid future fights as much as possible.
 

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Sacrosanct

Legend
I currently play in official 5e adventures and also am using TSR era adventures in other campaigns. I'm gonna vote "no", because the frequency of magic items in 5e is much lower than they were in AD&D. Looking at the past two campaigns (Rime of the Frostmaiden and Night Below (2e)), and the PCs have found more magic items by level 3 in NB than in all of RotFM. Once they actually start getting into the underdark, the treasure explodes.

AD&D had a lot of magic items in it. Even without going Monty Haul by the definition of the time.
 

I'm sure most of you are familiar with the expression of the "Monty Haul" style game.
(In case you're not, here's a link to an article: Monty Haul)

Specifically, looking at the 1990 "Campaign Sourcebook and Catacomb Guide" definition: "a 'giveaway' campaign in which the players receive treasure and experience disproportionate to the dangers they overcome."
No it isn't. The default for 5e is easy difficulty and challenging the party is difficult but this has just about nothing to do with either (a) the quantity of loot handed out or (b) the real reason Monty Haul DMs were a problem. The first part is obvious; the players will chew through officially overwhelming challenges if you give them no loot at all beyond their starting equipment. And the most wanted magic item by my players? An artificial gravity generator for their spelljammer. This isn't Monty Haul.

Meanwhile the reason Monty Haul was a problem was open tables and people taking their character between games. Loot isn't that overwhelming if everyone has the same amount; it just changes the difficulty setting. If you take your characters between games and Mick gives ten times the loot that Alice, Bob, and Charlie do then Mick's excessive generousness isn't just going to just slightly unbalance his game it's both going to unbalance Alice's, Bob's. and Charlie's games, and lead to a chasm between those who play in Mick's game and those who don't which has even bigger impacts on Alice's, Bob's, and Charlie's games.
 


Retreater

Legend
How experienced are your players? I agree that the default assumptions of 5E make for a relatively easy time of it, but a bunch of new players coming in at 3rd level are going to get their butts kicked by a 7th level encounter.
Most of them are only experienced in 5e, but I'd say the majority have been playing the system for 4+ years.

For one, you don't need to hand out treasure all in this edition. In my games, I don't hand out magic armor for example.
In my case "Monty Haul" isn't just gold and magic items. It's getting any kind of reward for minimal effort. This can be XP, Levels, Titles, Story Developments, or - heck - even the reward of playing the game itself. Most of the time my players can pass through on auto-pilot, halfway paying attention to the plot, combats, etc. They're still rewarded with the game continuing on as if they had played masterfully, using every resource, been thoroughly engaged, etc.
...I suggest you look at 5e differently. Clearly the encounter guidelines are not meant for you and your group. Ignore them and just make fun encounters and don't worry about the "level" of the fight. That is what I do and it is not only more enjoyable for me to DM, it is more fun (and potentially dangerous) for the PCs.
I'm to the point (especially with the 7th level group) where there is nothing that can be done in the constraints of the 5e ruleset that can challenge them. Throw enough enemies in to challenge them, it becomes a grotesque slog of 100+ monsters that would take weeks to run. Throw in the rare enemy that can challenge them, and it's a TPK. Let there be ramifications in the plot for a story failure, and the campaign world is destroyed (not that they really care anyway).
Wow, I feel like I'm a killer DM and I don't try to take as much as half there HP in a routine fight, maybe 25% max. However, a challenging fight might take 75%+ of their HP
For me, a satisfying combat should have numerous times where several characters feel on the verge of death. If combats don't feel challenging, why bother? Especially when the party calls all the shots about when they heal, recover all spell slots, etc., the only thing you can do is threaten their characters and chance of success in the campaign.
 

DarkCrisis

Reeks of Jedi
Had my 5E group play some 2E. 3 of them never played it before. 2 of them LOVE it, the 3rd feels underpowered.

The 2 that love it, love that, and I quote, "The dice rolls feel more important. I actually feel like I'm doing something." "I love that when I swing my axe it can completely change how the battle is going."

One player always ran into rooms and tripped traps etc in 5E because he knew he could easily survive almost anything. Now he actually lets the Thief do her job and uses strategy and caution. Battles have become much more fun.

And they actually love getting XP now (and I love giving it now too). It feels earned.

I don't think ill ever run 5th ed again.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
For me, a satisfying combat should have numerous times where several characters feel on the verge of death. If combats don't feel challenging, why bother?
In any edition, making every combat an edge-of-the-seat affair is a very fine line to walk; as pushing it just a bit too far gives you a TPK. I long ago concluded that having every combat be "on the edge" just isn't possible.

Never mind the vagaries of the dice can quickly make a mockery out of what's supposedly a very dangerous battle and at the same time can make a pushover encounter near-deadly.
Especially when the party calls all the shots about when they heal, recover all spell slots, etc., the only thing you can do is threaten their characters and chance of success in the campaign.
If your goal is to get your players worried I think you might want to look at bringing back some bad-ass threats from earlier editions, level loss being the most obvious.
 

dave2008

Legend
I'm to the point (especially with the 7th level group) where there is nothing that can be done in the constraints of the 5e ruleset that can challenge them. Throw enough enemies in to challenge them, it becomes a grotesque slog of 100+ monsters that would take weeks to run. Throw in the rare enemy that can challenge them, and it's a TPK. Let there be ramifications in the plot for a story failure, and the campaign world is destroyed (not that they really care anyway).
I don't know what your issues are, but I am still able to challenge my 15th level group with exciting, dramatic, and dangerous combats. I wish I could help, but I believe I have pointed you to the epic encounter guideline before and I guess it hasn't helped you. I find that rule-of-thumb to be pretty good for creating a challenging encounter that that isn't a TPK.
For me, a satisfying combat should have numerous times where several characters feel on the verge of death. If combats don't feel challenging, why bother?
Well my group has a different metric for sure. If you are looking for numerous times for several characters at the verge of death then you definitely need to look at epic encounters. Though you can only handle about 2 of those per adventure day.

FYI, a satisfying combat for us is one that is fun. That could be dangerous or it could be a cake-walk. As it is really hard to bring people back from the dead in my campaign, having several characters on the verge of death in every combat would be a very short adventure and I don't think very fun for us!
Especially when the party calls all the shots about when they heal, recover all spell slots, etc., the only thing you can do is threaten their characters and chance of success in the campaign.
If that is an issue for you why do you let them determine when they heal and recover spell slots? The DM has a big influence on when those can occur.
 
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Fundamentally, 'Monty Haul' (at the time it was originally used. Nowadays it can mean 5 different things to 4 different people) was a reference to people playing an existing system in ways someone with a platform (Gary, who developed the thing, which may or may not be relevant) thought out of sync with best practices. Declaring a whole system to be Monty Haul seems outside the intended use of the term. For the time, I can understand the point. As DEFCON 1 points out, that was when XP approximately equaled GP, so a lot of it was people levelling faster than Gary thought prudent*. And there's merit to that -- there wasn't a lot of stuff to get after name level for most classes, and the high-level spells were better suited for big-bad enemies the PCs should be defeating than really for PC usage (at least until some more high-level play structures like plane hopping madness were also developed). Opining that getting to that point was intended to take several years instead of months or the like was not an unreasonable position (TSR didn't really go about it in a very level-headed or diplomatic manner, but that's another issue).
*it could also be magic items, but honestly the oD&D and AD&D treasure tables gave out quite a bit of magic item loot, and stories abound of characters in his oD&D game being awash in wishes, so this would be more of a hypocritical focus if it were the case.

Regarding 5e -- IMO, it's not 'Monty Haul' (again, I don't know how that works in the original context of the term). I would say that its' defining quality is 'default to an easy setting' -- I won't even say it defaults to easy mode, since if people find it too easy they can just keep taking on greater threats until they are in over their head (and it becomes hard again), but I think we can safely call the default play rules an easy setting.

Fundamentally, I think this is a great move that TSR should have done very early in the game's evolution -- at least for B, BX, and BECMI which were billed as being for ages 8 or 10 and up* (but were mostly oD&D rewritten to a 4th grade reading level). I can't begin to count the number of friends I had in grade school who seemed the target audience for the game but who tried it for a day or a summer but didn't stick around, oftentimes because they died for the 18th time before 3rd level and decided the game just wasn't fun.
*or some specifics, away from books atm.

Of course, then you need guidelines for what to do when you want to move the challenge up*. 5e has some relatively clear and straightforward options in the DMG (as alternates, and also a roadmap for adjustments of your own), but then huge swaths of gamers look right past them and continue to complain about the game being too easy (and I can't really blame them). Whatever 'right way' there is for setting up optional difficulty moderation, they clearly botched it for many-to-most.
*preferably other than just going after higher and higher challenges within the existing system, which IMO ends up becoming really swingy in a 'everything is fine until everything is a complete disaster' kind of way.

That's not how people play because gameplay is limited by the constraints of how long those encounters take & how long a session lasts. Sure you can spread that out over multiple sessions but the rest mechanics are structured to be easy for players to force through no matter what the GM throws out shy of outright Fiat & the party is still able to trivially blaze through all of the prior filler encounters with ease up until the last fight or two. When the default assumptions fail to account for realities of things like table & session time in any way shy of throwing it to the GM to solve those default assumptions are a failure of design.
What I don't really get is this: Once the game left the Sandbox/West Marches dungeoncrawling campaign style (that may or may not ever been standard play for most groups), all versions of D&D* have that. Barring DM imposed time clocks, players could always go out and rest overnight, two nights, or a couple nights (if your cleric couldn't cover all the HP loss in a single memorization cycle**, and in AD&D once 10-minutes/spell level starts adding up) and come back with a full refresh of abilities. I agree that it is a fundamental issue that the game never really solved to satisfaction (other than perhaps admonishments against, similar to the call of a playstyle Monty Haul), but I don't really know why 5e gets special mention on this. Maybe because there number of save-or-die effects have also been ameliorated (removing one of the consequences other than TPK and slow wear-down of resources), or because HP return overnight rather than merely 'usually over two days (if you also want full cleric spells).' Both were changed for reasons I understand, but I can also see some unintended consequences in the aftermath.
*barring 4e, and even it has daily powers.
**and if the only cleric went down, well then I guess then things became a challenge


In my case "Monty Haul" isn't just gold and magic items. It's getting any kind of reward for minimal effort. This can be XP, Levels, Titles, Story Developments, or - heck - even the reward of playing the game itself. Most of the time my players can pass through on auto-pilot, halfway paying attention to the plot, combats, etc. They're still rewarded with the game continuing on as if they had played masterfully, using every resource, been thoroughly engaged, etc.
I'm unsure how the system could be doing that. How does the game system stop story developments from being challenging? How does the game continue or pass them through even if they are on autopilot? The only thing the game is doing is making the combat (and dungeon-crawling) aspects of the game relatively easy.

Sure, if rescuing the merchant's son is too easy against the 8-member band of brigands, well sure the DM might have to put them up against 12 or 16 brigands if they want it to be a challenge. But the party still has to negotiate reward with the merchant, find the brigands, scout their camp, figure out how to rescue the son (and not have him be killed in the resulting scuffle), and all the other things that happen in any game system.
I'm to the point (especially with the 7th level group) where there is nothing that can be done in the constraints of the 5e ruleset that can challenge them. Throw enough enemies in to challenge them, it becomes a grotesque slog of 100+ monsters that would take weeks to run. Throw in the rare enemy that can challenge them, and it's a TPK. Let there be ramifications in the plot for a story failure, and the campaign world is destroyed (not that they really care anyway).
So you think you can't let them not win because the game world is destroyed? I don't know how the game system can address that.

For me, a satisfying combat should have numerous times where several characters feel on the verge of death. If combats don't feel challenging, why bother? Especially when the party calls all the shots about when they heal, recover all spell slots, etc., the only thing you can do is threaten their characters and chance of success in the campaign.
The first part is going to be about preferences. I know several people who disliked 3e specifically because it seemed to want everyone to be extremely powerful but always feeling like they were a single unexpected event away from complete annihilation. They would prefer the 5e model, and I'm guessing you preferred 3e.

To the second, fundamentally, if a DM feels they can't call the shots on when the party can recharge, there's nothing else to say (but again I don't know how this is really different from all D&Ds). Maybe in your case, 5e (and most all other D&Ds) as your group seems wont to play it (I'm assuming pushing back against you trying to control how frequently they can rest) is Monty Haul in the original intent of a playstyle you find at odds with how you see the game best going.
 
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