D&D 5E Is the sleep spell d&d 5e too powerful

[DND_Reborn]

All I'm saying is that a 1st level wizard can very easily kill two other 1st levels (possibly 3) without it being complicated or in the least difficult (no saving throw). This cannot be sais for any other 1st level class or spell. Even "command" (also spell level 1) in which you say "sleep" has 1 round effectiveness with a saving throw! And affects only 1 person...

You also have to consider casting sleep is a limited resource. Fighters and Rogues can do their thing all day long. Sleep goes back to the idea that a Wizard-type can turn the tides once or maybe twice, but then they are done (of course unlimited cantrips removed this, much to my dismay...).

 

[Jasondd]

Sleep was super powerful in 1E as well, but I will tell you we've had wizards in our group put weakened party members to sleep in the middle of a fight.

Also, the fighter in your scenario would likely kill the wizard if he wins initiative. And even if he lost, the wizard would do maybe 8-10 points of damage to the fighter on a critical hit and then the fighter would wake up. His bonus action is second wind, he stands up, and attack the wizard.

There are all kinds of ways this works out. It is powerful, but not OP by any means.

Ok, but he would have killed the rogue, the priest and heavily damaged the fighter...to me, for a first level spell with no saving throw, is extremely (albeit) too powerful!

 

[Jasondd]

You also have to consider casting sleep is a limited resource. Fighters and Rogues can do their thing all day long. Sleep goes back to the idea that a Wizard-type can turn the tides once or maybe twice, but then they are done (of course unlimited cantrips removed this, much to my dismay...).

Once is all you need if your enemy is dead...

 

[Salthorae]

All I'm saying is that a 1st level wizard can very easily kill two other 1st levels (possibly 3) without it being complicated or in the least difficult (no saving throw). This cannot be said for any other 1st level class or spell (that I know of) Even "command" (also spell level 1) in which you say "sleep" has 1 round effectiveness with a saving throw! And affects only 1 person...

Yes it can. As I already posted.

A melee based character can VERY easily kill all three other first levels “without it being complicated or in the least difficult (no saving throw).”

Go back and look at my post.

There is no difference in having the unconscious condition if you’re asleep because you’re asleep or because of the sleep spell. They’re both unconscious.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Once is all you need if your enemy is dead...

Not when you're facing several encounters per day before being able to regain that spell slot, while the other classes are continuing to do respectable damage every round while you're stuck with a firebolt.

I'm not sure what you're wanting here. If you play the game the way it's not designed to be played (PVP), can sleep at level 1 seem overpowered? Ok. Fine. Now what?

 

[Mort]

Ok, but he would have killed the rogue, the priest and heavily damaged the fighter...to me, for a first level spell with no saving throw, is extremely (albeit) too powerful!

1. Again, It's not balanced for pvp.

2. While there is no saving throw, the uncertainty of the 5d8 roll has nearly the same effect. Roll low, and it's quite possible that against any serious opponent - nothing happens. This happened to my group - fighting orcs. The bard cast sleep and managed to roll a 6 on 5d8 - not even 1 orc went down.

3. As stated (a few times) while the duration is 10 rounds, any damage - or even a nondamaging slap will wake the target(s) and break the spell. you don't get advantage for 10 rounds.

Sleep is an excellent (top tier) spell at low levels, but even there it's not OP and it's effectiveness plummets quickly.

 

[Uller]

First....what you are doing is called white rooming. It is where your argument requires a very specific set of circumstances to happen in order to be valid.

Second, even then it doesn't work. The odds of getting all three in on casting is low (13%) and you have to multiply that by the odds of one shotting each PC. So by the time you get to the fighter the odds are vanishingly small.

Third....a better scenario is to ask how this spell works in an actual encounter. A PC trying to murder his own party is something that has never happened at my table and never will. I'd probably end the game before I let that happen because it is not the game I am interested in running. But it has never come up and never will because my players arent a******s.

A better way to assess the spell is how does it fair when by the PCs against monsters and vice versa.

In low level games the answer is it is very effective. So effective in fact I rarely play a wizard that doesn't have it available and as DM I would be hesitant to use it against a first or second level party unless there was a good roleplay reason to avoid a TPK. A 1st level mage and a few goblins getting the jump on the party could go very badly.

At higher levels it is useful in two ways: One...it is a sure way to disable low level foes quickly and quietly....so need to sneak past the guards without leaving a trail of bodies? Sleep.

It is also a great finisher spell for removing wounded foes from a fight with a low level spell but this depends on smart play and how much info the DM gives you. The fighter and rogue just did a crap ton of damage to a troll and you want to make sure it is down with no chance of failure? Sleep or Magic Missile are good choices. But this depends on if the DM is giving you clues about how close to 0hp the monster is.

At my table, we use the "bloodied" condition from 4e and when we us a VTT I even use health bars. So my players have plenty of information available if they are paying attention to know if sleep will work...but so do my NPC spell casters and at mid levels I have had villain casters us it to remove a wounded PC from the fight.

It is a good spell. I would guess it is one of those sacred cow spells like fireball that the purposely left a little overpowered. But it is far from unbalancing. The player in my group that most often plays wizards never takes it.

 

[jasper]

The Evil Waldo The Wonder Wizard from Westin raise his staff to club Rocky the Rogue from Rottenburg. Nat 1 Nat 8. The Evil Waldo The Wonder Wizard from Westin raises his staff again rolls nat 19 and nat 18 doing 6 +2 or 8 to Rocky.


Rocky, “WTF.” He rises from prone an kicks Peter Parker Priest of Pollyana. He Rolls nat 1. The Evil Waldo The Wonder Wizard from Westin raises his staff and rolls Nat 20 no more Rocky.


So unless The Evil Waldo The Wonder Wizard from Westin can roll nat 20 and max out his staff rolls, he ain’t killing everyone.


Sacrosanct is right, Sleep toward the end of combat can be helpful at higher tiers.

 

[Tony Vargas]

IS THE SLEEP SPELL TOO POWERFUL AND IN NEED OF A REVISION?

I take it you're not familiar with earlier incarnations of the spell?

TSR era, it could put to sleep 2-8, even 4-16 creatures, no save.
3.5, it gave a save, but saves were easy to optimize.
4e, it slowed, then put you to sleep on a failed save, though you saved every round to wake up - still the nastiest condition imposed by such a low-level spell, and recognized as arguably the most potent 1st-level daily in the game.
...
5e, it's based on hps but back to no save.

Sleep, like Fireball, by tradition, is a particularly good spell, yes.

 

[Uller]

All I'm saying is that a 1st level wizard can very easily kill two other 1st levels (possibly 3) without it being complicated or in the least difficult (no saving throw). This cannot be said for any other 1st level class or spell (that I know of) Even "command" (also spell level 1) in which you say "sleep" has 1 round effectiveness with a saving throw! And affects only 1 person...

Command can work on a foe that has 41 or more hp. Sleep has no effect in that situation. Command can work on elves. Command can be used for things other that temporarily disabling a foe.