D&D 3E/3.5 Is the spiked chain too good? (3.5)

[Ridley's Cohort]

If your PC happens to have a good Str, Con, Dex, and Int, the Spiked Chain route looks very attractive. It is somewhat handy against mooks, but eventually even the mooks tend to be Large.

It is an inferior weapon against BBEGs that are not Medium bipeds.

 

[James McMurray]

You're leaving out that the greatsword crits twice as often as the spiked chain. The critical characteristics of weapons are an important part of their stats.

Taking two 10th level fighter with the above assumed (plus Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus), they both get +18 to hit with their primary attack. Against an AC 23 opponent, the greatsword fighter does an average of 16.1375 damage with his primary attack, while the spiked chain fighter does an average of 12.35625 with the same.

True, but the greatsword cannot trip, gets no bonuses to disarm, and does not have reach. You'll do less damage per hit, but you'll get more attacks because of the reach, or you'll avoid more attacks because of it.

 

[James McMurray]

It is an inferior weapon against BBEGs that are not Medium bipeds.

How so? Against medium (or smaller) bipeds you get to trip. Against large creatures you get to avoid AoOs by not having to close to 5'. Against huge or larger creatures you are in the same boat as the greatsword wielder, but you do less damage. Its only against huge+ creatures were the Spiked Chain becomes an obviously inferior weapon compared to the greatsword.

 

[FireLance]

The spiked chain is good, but it suffers from Multiple Ability Dependency. To perform its basic role as a melee weapon, you need good Strength. To grant multiple AOOs from Combat Reflexes, you need good Dexterity. To gain more than a slight advantage at tripping and disarming your opponents, you need Improved Trip and Improved Disarm, which requires Combat Expertise, which means you need Intelligence 13.

The spiked chain gives an advantage in many areas. However, to be good in all these areas requires you to split your focus in feats and ability scores. With the right selection of feats, and assuming equal ability scores, a character can choose another weapon and be just as good or better in a specific area than the spiked chain user.

So, IMO, the spiked chain is not too good.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

How so? Against medium (or smaller) bipeds you get to trip. Against large creatures you get to avoid AoOs by not having to close to 5'. Against huge or larger creatures you are in the same boat as the greatsword wielder, but you do less damage. Its only against huge+ creatures were the Spiked Chain becomes an obviously inferior weapon compared to the greatsword.

There are other ways to avoid AoOs . An optimized spike chain specialist will have spent 3 feats on that weapon style which could have been used for the Spring Attack chain. If you have room and good movement, you can even avoid the full attack with Spring Attack.

The is also a strategic element here: If you are a specialized melee grunt what is your primary job in the party? Now this will vary by party composition and campaign style, but in most parties I have played in the job of the grunt is to take the fight to the BBEG. So you are a spiked chain specialist and you are a mook's worst nightmare. Who cares? That's not your job! We have sorcerors and/or rogues and/or bards and/or rangers who can neutralize the mooks.

The spiked chain wielder is likely to be inferior in two respects: (1) ~10%-15% less damage once Improved Critical is available, and (2) a softer defense because you have a slightly lower Con or Wis in order to get the necessary Int for Trip.

The spiked chain style is pretty good, but it is not overpowered unless the DM consistently throws Medium biped melee BBEGs at you. Against other kinds of BBEGs the style is measurably inferior.

Now I am not saying that the spiked chain is a poor style at all, but its particular forte is dealing with mooks. Is that a good thing? Yes. Is that a great thing? Probably not. YMMV.

 

[James McMurray]

Alternativey you could spend just one feat and have a reach weapon that wrks up close. As I've said all along, tripping and disarming are just fringe benefits. And you can still get the spring attack tree with a spiked chain, espeically if you're a fighter.

But as with most balance issues, the Spiked Chain's relative worth is purely subjective, and depends on the campaign and the player. I personally think that it has too many benefits and too few drawbacks. Others disagree. That's cool. No point in continuing to argue, as we're not going to be convincing each other any time soon.

 

[HighlandsBear]

Is it worthwhile to use another reach weapon other than spiked chain? I think it is clearly worth the feat and I can't imagine why a fighter would use a ranseur for reasons other than style. And btw using weapon frequency to balance the spiked chain will just mean everyone uses swords and most other weapons will be ignored as they aren't much more common than the spiked chain.

The spiked chain fighter can just utterly dominate the battle field during early levels. It is too powerful right there. In LG (all under 10th lvl stuff) you can definitely see a huge difference between spiked chain fighters and other melee types. Spread stats? With pt buy it makes more sense to spread them out some, and it is hard to make a fighter that doesn't have a 14 in at least one of int or dex to get useful feats. Later on the enormous area it threatens is still powerful and can limit where monsters can move (like going past the frontline to the wizards hiding in the back). It's one size catagory less of monster that can outreach you. An opponent cannot just withdraw and run away from you without penalty. And humanoid combatants are still an issue (like monks need to be dealt with by fighters).

 

[Darklone]

Isn't sundering the chain pretty easy?

I've used some chain twinks against my group, all of them died without further ado. Sure, they could keep the whole group on the floor. Did it ever work? Never. One or two good rolls from one opponent, and the chain dude was on the floor or had to drop his weapon. I have to admit that it was a fight without Enlarge Person (tight quarters), but for each trip check there will still be two d20s rolled... you'll drop the first enemy, the second, the third trips you.

 

[brendan candries]

"Isn't sundering the chain pretty easy?"

Actually it's harder.

Everyone can try to sunder a 10-feet reach weapon without the sunder feat and not draw an aoo. The chain also threathens at 5 feet.

 

[Brekki]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the "Wolf Berserker" feat yet. It's from Unapproachable East and gives a +4 to trip checks and allows to to take improved trip without taking combat expertise. All you need is to be a barbarian that's been in rashemen for a short time


Lets assume a lvl 9 barbarian with 18 strength and a +4 strength item. He has a sweeping spiked chain +1 and the party sorcerer/wizard/cleric with strength domain casts enlarge person on him, or he has the jotunbrud feat.

So enlarged in rage that is 2d6+13 damage, a sure way to trigger the knockdown feat ... and with a +24 (+8 strength +4 improved trip +4 wolf berzerker +4 size +4 sweeping) on trip attempts, he will trip nearly all enemies, even the large and some of the huge ones.

Using the spiked chain this way ... I think there is not a single other weapon out there that can be so effective.