D&D 3.x Is the spiked chain too good? (3.5)

[Darklone]

Kytons. Kytons all the way. But they screwed even this.

 

[Gort]

you'll drop the first enemy, the second, the third trips you.

That's a bit of a skewed reason for saying it's a bad weapon... Try using an equal number of chain twinks against your party

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Alternativey you could spend just one feat and have a reach weapon that wrks up close. As I've said all along, tripping and disarming are just fringe benefits. And you can still get the spring attack tree with a spiked chain, espeically if you're a fighter.

But as with most balance issues, the Spiked Chain's relative worth is purely subjective, and depends on the campaign and the player. I personally think that it has too many benefits and too few drawbacks. Others disagree. That's cool. No point in continuing to argue, as we're not going to be convincing each other any time soon.

Fair enough.

If it were me, and I wanted Spring Attack but not Trip, why not just use a glaive or guisarme instead and save the feat altogether? I can use Spring Attack to get me into the right tactical position.

 

[James McMurray]

You can use Spring Attack to get into a tatical position against a single foe (or even a few foes). But if you're up against a bunch of enemies, you can soon find yourself wishing you had both reach and up close combat capabilities.

 

[Scion]

That is why I have allies, decoys, use tactics, and have an escape plan

If you are outnumbered 10 to 1 it wont matter what weapon you have.

Spiked chain isnt broken, in a lot of ways it is very underpowered

 

[James McMurray]

If you are outnumbered 10 to 1 it wont matter what weapon you have.

D&D is one of the few games where that statement isn't true the vast ajority of the time. Because of the Challenge Rating / EL system you can usually bet that if you're outnumbered 10 to 1 you are still going to have a good chance of survival unless your DM is a realistic sort who gives situations instead of designed encounters.

Last weekend the party in my epic campaign was outnumbered 10 to 1 against 50 CR 17 Duergar Blackgaurds. If the fighter had been using a Spiked Chain the cleric probably wouldn't have died, nd they would have killed more than 24 of the duergar before having to flee (they probably would have still had to flee though).

 

[Scion]

of course if you use good tactics and the opponents are not allowed to use good tactics then sure, things could go differently.

But I have seen 10 unadjusted kobolds take out a party of 10th level characters. These things can happen even in this game. As you get to higher levels the variences get larger, so it is possible for even stranger swings to happen.

But then I was useing the tacit assumption that the opponents mattered in some way. Guess I should've stated that. Oops.

Edit: since, if they werent a challenge in any event anyway, it wouldnt matter what weapon you have either. So both examples work fine. The weapon is ok.

 

[James McMurray]

of course if you use good tactics and the opponents are not allowed to use good tactics then sure, things could go differently.

Who said anything about the opponents not being allowed to use good tactics? Both sides went all out on that battle, using just about every trick in the book.

But then I was useing the tacit assumption that the opponents mattered in some way. Guess I should've stated that. Oops.

Who said anything about the opponents not mattering in some way? I can gaurantee you that when the samurai opened a door and took 130+ damage from three readied actions he knew instantly that his opponents mattered.

But I have seen 10 unadjusted kobolds take out a party of 10th level characters.

I'd love to hear that story, because I can't think of any way for that to happen without the kobolds getting gear beyond their CR, divine aid from the DM, the party being ambushed when they're pretty much out of resources and the kobolds getting lucky rolls, or the party being a team of stategically challenged idiots. Possibly a combination of those.

 

[Scion]

You have apparently never seen good tactics in use Just some strange shade of almost-good-tactics..lol (no worries james, I'm not being insulting here, or at least not trying to be, but it happened, and it can again. There are lots of threads about such things on here, I think there was even something like it in the wotc stuff on their board)

kobolds are mean creatures, but many can be when used to their full extent.

Neither here nor there though. The spiked chain is generally less useful than most of the other weapons out there that are more 'common'. At least in pieces, some in nearly every way.

You talked about vs several opponents and I said that that situation could be modified by just about anything. And it can be. It doesnt say much either way for or against in the case of the spiked chain.

It has its uses, it has its weaknesses, it has its strengths. Overall it is a very interesting weapon, somewhat unrealistic, but hardly overpowered. In fact I'll argue that most of the time it is underpowered. In the few ways which it is good it is pretty good indeed, but lots of other weapons could do the same thing, for less expense.

 

[James McMurray]

I'd still like to hear the story, unless you're just talking out of your butt. Sorry, I'm not being insulting here, or at least not trying to be, but I don't believe it.

Toss up a story hour and give us a link. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to read about how 10 kobolds took out a party of 10th level characters, without any of the things I mentioned above.