D&D 5E Is the Wall of Faithless in 5e?

[Seramus]

If the heart was lighter than the feather, then they would be admitted into the Sekhet-Aaru where Osiris dwelled and ruled, effectively being reborn. However, if their hearts proved heavier than the feather, then they would be devoured by Ammit, dying a permanent death.

Sekhet-Aaru was the final gate. There were several possible destinations you could be sent to prior to that, starting with horrible and slowly getting nicer as you moved through each gate towards Osiris. And the gates were guarded by monsters if you tried to go past a gate you did not earn.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

Sekhet-Aaru was the final gate. There were several possible destinations you could be sent to prior to that, starting with horrible and slowly getting nicer as you moved through each gate towards Osiris. And the gates were guarded by monsters if you tried to go past a gate you did not earn.

I was under the impression that Anubis sat before that final gate, and the rest of the journey through the underworld would come in the form of various challenges tailored to each soul to get past those monsters. Didn't mention it because it didn't seem that analogous to the FR Fugue plane, which is pretty much just standing in line; the judgment part was what I was focusing on. Is there an interpretation where Anubis guards an earlier gate and not the final one?

 

[Arnwolf666]

This is a fictional mythology. Even some real world mythologies can be very brutal. Many gods in many historical pantheons were not very just by our standards and may have been considered symbols of justice and goodness at the time. I like pantheons and mythologies that twist things up a bit.

Heck in Viking mythology drowning in sea was horrible. And not dying in combat meant no Val hala.

The Greek gods were very vindictive.

 

[Seramus]

I was under the impression that Anubis sat before that final gate, and the rest of the journey through the underworld would come in the form of various challenges tailored to each soul to get past those monsters. Didn't mention it because it didn't seem that analogous to the FR Fugue plane, which is pretty much just standing in line; the judgment part was what I was focusing on. Is there an interpretation where Anubis guards an earlier gate and not the final one?

It varies, since kemeticism has a loooong history full of changes and syncretization. Sometimes the Hall of Two Truths is the first place you visit, then you go through the gates to your final destination. Sometimes you started in front of Osiris and he judged your attributes and sent you back through the gates. Sometimes you work your way through the gates, get to the Hall, then pass that to Osiris.

But I wasn’t trying to undermine your point. Just highlight that there was a large amount of ‘unpleasant afterlife’ in Duat.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This is a fictional mythology. Even some real world mythologies can be very brutal. Many gods in many historical pantheons were not very just by our standards and may have been considered symbols of justice and goodness at the time. I like pantheons and mythologies that twist things up a bit.

Heck in Viking mythology drowning in sea was horrible. And not dying in combat meant no Val hala.

The Greek gods were very vindictive.

There is a misunderstanding here, though a common one.

Valhalla is not “Viking heaven”. The ideal afterlife is getting to spend it with those you loved, ie your family.

Valhalla is a reward for brave warriors who died and potentially couldn’t be returned to their families. It’s an obligation and an honor, but not something bakers were sad about not getting into. Hel is, at worst, kinda boring.

Also, half the courageous dead go to Folkvangr, where Freyja rules, and she chooses her half first.

 

[Shiroiken]

Wow, some strange arguments about this.

Here's the deal: the original god of Death, a MASSIVE evil #%^* had control of how the afterlife works. The only way to avoid that was to have a patron deity that would claim your soul before you went to the City of the Dead. Once you got there, you were judged by the god of the Dead, who decided either you were false to your patron god (where you suffered endless torture for failing to appease your god) or you were faithless, lacking any patron at all (where your soul ended up decaying as part of the wall).

Kellemvor attempted to make changes when he (the first non-evil god of Death), because as he was once mortal, he felt the system unfair (as many here do). However, the multiverse is a structured place, and rules cannot be easily changed, as Kellemvor was censured for his actions and forced to return to the original system. Not all of the gods like the system, but that is the system of the cosmos. It does cause almost everyone to pick a patron deity (most would have done so anyway) and encourages them to actually follow their deity with more than just lip service. FYI, you can give prayers and offerings to deities other than your patron, so you're not henotheistic (for example, offerings to Umberlee before a sea voyage is always wise).

As for the author's decision to create this... I don't know. Ed probably wrote a story about it when he was younger, set in the Realms before it was a D&D setting. It is official canon for the Realms, but the great thing about D&D is that you can change whatever you want as the DM anyway. The odd thing is that it really has about zero impact on the game at all, since you stay on the Fugue Plain long enough for most spells to bring you back anyway, except for things that can go back years/decades/centuries (which never really matter IME anyway).

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

You haven't seen the king, and you maybe don't believe in his existence, but you have to pay taxes anywave.

Being atheist in a fantasy world isn't easy when a neighbour has been attacked by undeads or divine spellcasters can use their magic to heal diseases and injuries.

I don't mind the canon. In my D&D worlds the most of souls are suffering penance in a purgatory plane, and later to celestial plane, always remembering the past. In the end when the soul is ready, this will go to the true Heaven with the saints and the supreme creator God. Some souls from the infernal planes can save themself (and they go to the purgatory), but they aren't destroyed really, but their fate is the true Hell. The penance in the purgatory is really hard. A century in a prison are softer than only a hour of divine punishment.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Huh. I've always wondered where this resistance to the Wall comes from. It's not like there aren't real world examples of similar concepts, so, that's not it. It's not that it doesn't actually make logical sense to some degree - since the gods are dependent on worship, those choosing to actively not worship the gods are seen as a problem.

I think this has a lot more to do with players just being so hell bent on never, ever being told that they have to do anything.

It seems to me a fundamental problem of all the stuff done with souls is that we "invented" the concept to basically give ourselves a sense of immortality, to define something that is truly the essence of being. Our body is basically just a (temporary) shell for our true self, and our true self exists forever without end.

Torturing souls... yeah, maybe. But dissolving them into nothing? That seems to defeat the point of the whole concept of souls. If your soul can be gone forever, it still means your existence will end for good. There will be a time where you're not, and never will be again.
Even if you're not a Faithless, that is true. Because what happens if you go to your patron god, and in one of the conflict between gods, your god is killed and some devil/demon/other-soul-eating entity snatches your soul? It kinda defeats the entire concept.

Additionally, it's just mean. So you can live a good life, help your neighbours, do the best to support your community, but you happen to never have found a god to worship, and the response is that you just get tortured until you're dissolved. Why couldn't a good god take you on out for the effort of trying to be a good person? Why does it have to be the Wall of Faithless? Why is that the best option for everyone involved?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You haven't seen the king, and you maybe don't believe in his existence, but you have to pay taxes anywave.

Being atheist in a fantasy world isn't easy when a neighbour has been attacked by undeads or divine spellcasters can use their magic to heal diseases and injuries.

I don't mind the canon. In my D&D worlds the most of souls are suffering penance in a purgatory plane, and later to celestial plane, always remembering the past. In the end when the soul is ready, this will go to the true Heaven with the saints and the supreme creator God. Some souls from the infernal planes can save themself (and they go to the purgatory), but they aren't destroyed really, but their fate is the true Hell. The penance in the purgatory is really hard. A century in a prison are softer than only a hour of divine punishment.

The issue isn’t atheism, as such. You can believe in the gods without caring about their existence or their churches.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

You have to remember the difference between atheism and misotheism or the maltheismo.

Atheism is when you are sure God doesn't exist.

Misotheism is when you hate god(s).

Maltheism is when you think God is bad.

And monolatry isn't nor monotheism neither polytheism, but when you believe in the existence of some deities but only adore one.

Tolkien's Middle-Earth wasn't polytheism at all, but only a supreme god, Ilúvatar, and the other beings were like angels. Melkor and Sauron never were the "evil twin" but weaker than Ilúvatar, the pantocrator.

Voltaire said:

"I would not wish to have to deal with an atheist prince, who would find it to his interest to have me ground to powder in a mortar: I should be quite sure of being ground to powder. If I were a sovereign, I would not wish to have to deal with atheist courtiers, whose interest it would be to poison me: I should have to be taking antidotes every day. It is therefore absolutely necessary for princes and for peoples, that the idea of a Supreme Being, creator, ruler, rewarder, revenger, shall be deeply engraved in people's minds".

And then he didn't watch Joffrey Baratheon with a crossbow or Ramsay Bolton with his "wives" in an episode of Games of Thrones.

In a fantasy world not only the atheism is hard when you face supernatural menaces, but when you lose at least a brother when you are still underage. When you face suffering and death then hedonism or selfish pleasure is ephemeral like ashes scattered by the wind. And some religious traditions are too popular to be forgotten. The procession of Holy Week in Spain is a good example. Lot of people who never goes to church in Sunday for all the year love Spanish processions or they are in "cofradías" (brotherhoods) to carry the religious images.