Is the Warhammer a D&D Invention?

[Dannyalcatraz]

One of the few exceptions I've seen to the "RW weapons are lighter than you think" is a Japanese weapon- a 5'5" long club with an octagonal cross-section, studded with metal studs for most of its length, which was mentioned on some show I caught the other night while channel surfing.

In most American RPGs, its called a Tetsubo, but they used a different name for it (which escapes me). According to the show I was watching, they massed between 10-15 lbs- and were designed to crush...well...anything. They demonstrated it by breaking a chunk off of a 1" thick heavy shield with metal braces and a massive thighbone from something like an Ox.

Given its existence, I wouldn't doubt that somewhere/somewhen out there, some armorer was asked to make a 2-handed hammer with an 8lb+ head...not quite like those depicted in Fantasy movies, TV shows and art, but massive nonetheless.

 

[Henry]

Say it with me now...

D&D weapon encumbrance is not a measure of weight. It is an abstraction supposedly to take into account weight, area, and stowability.

A 15 lb greatsword is probably only 6-8 lbs, but its size and bulk "doubles" its weight to show how big and clumsy it is to carry.

Fine, now go back in time and tell me that when I was 12 years old! Young Me saw that phrase, but didn't have anything else to compare it to besides old movies (our library sucked back in the late 70's / early 80's) so, that 150 encumbrance two-handed sword was 15 lbs in my mind, by God.

Doing a little look-up yesterday before posting, I was reminded that there has been some confusion in the general public about ceremonial weapons, which were a little heavier, and practical weapons, the ones for the battlefield. In more recent years, since replicas became more popular, the replicas have been made differently, made from stainless steel, etc. all which add to misconceptions about what real, well-made iron age and later hand weapons were really like.

 

[frankthedm]

One of the few exceptions I've seen to the "RW weapons are lighter than you think" is a Japanese weapon- a 5'5" long club with an octagonal cross-section, studded with metal studs for most of its length, which was mentioned on some show I caught the other night while channel surfing.

In most American RPGs, its called a Tetsubo, but they used a different name for it (which escapes me). According to the show I was watching, they massed between 10-15 lbs- and were designed to crush...well...anything. They demonstrated it by breaking a chunk off of a 1" thick heavy shield with metal braces and a massive thighbone from something like an Ox.

Given its existence, I wouldn't doubt that somewhere/somewhen out there, some armorer was asked to make a 2-handed hammer with an 8lb+ head...not quite like those depicted in Fantasy movies, TV shows and art, but massive nonetheless.

Kanabō - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Painfully heavy weapon. Oni are often depicted with it to show how frighteningly strong they are.



Warhammers look like this.


1E and 2E warhammers looked like this, but only dealt 1d4+1 damage. Thus when 3.0 upgraded them to 1d8, the art direction made them start looking like 1 handed sledgehammers and Marvel Comic's Mjolner.

 

[pawsplay]

Say it with me now...

D&D weapon encumbrance is not a measure of weight. It is an abstraction supposedly to take into account weight, area, and stowability.

A 15 lb greatsword is probably only 6-8 lbs, but its size and bulk "doubles" its weight to show how big and clumsy it is to carry.

I'll go further than that. A greatsword, generally speaking, is under four pounds. Anything over that is a "bearing sword" (ceremonial weapon), with the exception of a handful of oddities. The Japanese, besides that insanely heavy club, also sometimes used very heavy swords that, while originally designed for training, were repurposed as battlefield arms. There is also some indirect evidence that the Celts and Gauls may have sometimes made battle-ready versions of bearing swords, but nonetheless in that 6-8 pound range. Highland claymores were also sometimes very large, again, in that 6-8 pound range. Most two-handed swords are notably smaller than claymores.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Kanabō - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Painfully heavy weapon. Oni are often depicted with it to show how frighteningly strong they are.

Thank you, FTDM! That is exactly it! (And note that the Oni uses it in 1 hand...every person using it in the demo used 2.)

Warhammers look like this.


1E and 2E warhammers looked like this, but only dealt 1d4+1 damage. Thus when 3.0 upgraded them to 1d8, the art direction made them start looking like 1 handed sledgehammers and Marvel Comic's Mjolner.

True, true- there is a disconnect between what the weapon really looked like and what it does in the game art and mechanics.

But don't forget- they also gave us the Maul (and the Warmace) in a couple of sources, which REALLY looks like a rock quarry on a stick. And its this that I was alluding to with the 8lb head. I know I've seen them in a few fantasy movies and art- the one that springs immediately to mind is one of the main henchmen in Conan the Barbarian. His mallet had a head on it that was the size of a Kia.

 

[doctorhook]

One of the few exceptions I've seen to the "RW weapons are lighter than you think" is a Japanese weapon- a 5'5" long club with an octagonal cross-section, studded with metal studs for most of its length, which was mentioned on some show I caught the other night while channel surfing.

In most American RPGs, its called a Tetsubo, but they used a different name for it (which escapes me). According to the show I was watching, they massed between 10-15 lbs- and were designed to crush...well...anything. They demonstrated it by breaking a chunk off of a 1" thick heavy shield with metal braces and a massive thighbone from something like an Ox.

IIRC, an actual Tetsubo (or maybe I mean the Hakakubo; I forget which) was also quite heavy for a staff, and sometimes used moves where one end was resting on the ground, and the other was resting inside the opponent's chest, after having been used a bit like a battering ram, to crush the opponent's ribcage. I believe that training with this weapon was usually intended to prepare a warrior for improvised combat with battlefield refuse, in the event that his weapons were destroyed in battle; in this the case, the weapon represents a heavy, rigid object, like a cart axle.

[*casts protection from japanerdrage and internet flameshield*]

 

[Galloglaich]

Other people have covered the basics of this pretty well, but my $.02 is that yes the DnD numbers were way off, the images even more so. The idea of fighting with something like a 9 lb maul is ludicrous. Next time you are in a hardware store pick one up and try to imagine fighting with it. Anyone who used something like that in a real fight against an even moderately trained or experienced opponent who had a normal weapon like a sword or a spear would be in big trouble.

The mallets used by English archers at Agincourt to subdue disabled French Knights were wood with lead on them, they were used primarily as tools for hammering tent stakes, and I'd eat my socks if they weighed more than 5 or 6 pounds. (by the way, for the guy making fun of the French knights, you might want to look up who won that war...)

Warhammers did exist. A real warhammer is basically something like an ordinary framing hammer on a longer haft and a spike on the other end instead of a nail puller (or alternately, an axe blade on the other end like a tomahawk. They weighed the same as any other hand to hand weapon, i.e. around 2-4 pounds something like that. There is also the poll-hammer, a two handed weapon which was basically the same exact hammer head on a 4' or 5' haft, often with a larger spike for punching through armor or axe blade on the other side.

Real warhammers are very interesting and potent weapons, not to mention painful. Poll Hammers in particular were popular with knights have a whole sections of many martial art manuals devoted to their use. Most non gamers find the idea of fighting with a sledge hammer a little silly - which it is, but it's a well established trope now.

The problem, IMO, is that gamers don't have much experience of weapons, especially back in the earlier days of DnD. They have no idea how lethal a 3 lb hammer on a 24" haft really is, or how they were used etc. (Maybe should watch the Patriot to get an idea). Few game systems have any way to differentiate armor piercing weapons from other kinds of weapons (or how armor really works), or any way to use weapons to disarm or hook shields etc. etc. So to make a hammer special, you imitate Marvel Comics version of Thors Mythical weapon.... and that is what the DnD type giant war-maul actually is, comic book mythology.

The reality is, no matter how strong you are you can't change the laws of physics, there is a sweet spot for the weight of weapons. As pointed out upthread, real great swords weighed around 3-4 lbs, not 15, some really big true two-handers and pole arms got up in the 6 or 7 lbs range, but anything more than that was too slow. Gamers forget in real life nobody has enough hit points to endure being cut with a blade or thrust with a spear, it's not enough to do damage, you have to hurt the other guy before he hurts you.

As for that Oni, I saw that same show on Spike TV. a lot of fun, but give me a break, many things were way way off especially that thing. The claim that that weapon (a very common type found all over the world including Europe) was 15 let alone 30 lbs which they guy claimed right before they tried it out on that equally silly fake 1" thick iron-banded shield mounted on an inflexible steel bar... I don't know if you noticed the little studs flying off the 'oni' in the slow-mo shot that was pretty amusing. The real historical weapon probably weighed 6-8 lbs at the very most, probably more like half that.

Anyway I'm looking forward to Spartan vs. Ninja tonight

It's also a good point about stainless steel wallhangers, some of those are really dangerous. At least they don't sell the double-bladed swords on Ebay any more.

G.

 

[Kask]

To the OP: Here ya go.

Blunt Weapons » Full Sized Products » Medieval Weaponry

 

[Galloglaich]

Whenever I think of real-life war-hammers, I think of military picks designed to penetrate armor.

The D&D warhammer is just - well, a big hammer. Military picks are something different.

Any ideas?

By the way, the hammer part of a warhammer is an actual distinct weapon, both the hammer and the spike sides were actually used and had different value. Military picks have a really long spike, sometimes on both sides.

G.

 

[Remathilis]

I'll go further than that. A greatsword, generally speaking, is under four pounds. Anything over that is a "bearing sword" (ceremonial weapon), with the exception of a handful of oddities. The Japanese, besides that insanely heavy club, also sometimes used very heavy swords that, while originally designed for training, were repurposed as battlefield arms. There is also some indirect evidence that the Celts and Gauls may have sometimes made battle-ready versions of bearing swords, but nonetheless in that 6-8 pound range. Highland claymores were also sometimes very large, again, in that 6-8 pound range. Most two-handed swords are notably smaller than claymores.

My only familiarity is with claymores (and I've seen an estoc, but that's a corner-case sword used for taking knights off horseback). So my knowledge of handed sword weights is a little skewed (I assumed anything lighter would be a bastard sword/hand and a half sword).

Interesting ceremonials would be heavier than battle weapons. You'd think a heavier weapon would be better for resisting wear and tear and a ceremonial lighter because its not cleaving through armor and flesh. Eh, you learn something new...