Is there a better thought out book than Savage Species?

[Rystil Arden]

A Kobold Barbarian is a poor choice (power-gaming wise) over a Half-Orc Barbarian, or a Dwarf Barbarian. But Kobolds make good Rogues.

A Succubus/Incubus makes a poor sorcerer (power-gaming wise), but with some levels in Rogue and Blackguard, they are pretty sweet.

If you are looking for a custom casting monster, use the monster creation rules in the back of the Monster Manual. They do a pretty good job of generalizing alot of things.

Yup. There's a feat somewhere that lets you make a single attack after any Dimension Door or Teleport. At will Greater Teleport + That feat + Sneak Attack yields a fiendishly elusive skirmisher.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

Dude, that's like saying that adding 10 levels of Sorcerer to my Level 10 Wizard isn't as good as adding 10 more levels of Wizard. Not all class combinations are meant to be equal. That would be impossible.

The thing is, all monster classes are bad comboes with casters, while some are okay for fighter and rogue types. All you need is a str or dex high enough. As written, the most magical inherent caster species, beings that can instinctively cast spells practically at birth, are supremely inferior magicians in comparison to a human. A pixie has a half dozen potent spells naturally but it's a pitiful mage and an awesome rogue.

 

[Nail]

Look.

O.K!

+STR +BAB monster classes at least stack with melee based character levels.

Spell like ability monsters don't stack with caster based character levels.

You're looking at this from the wrong end, bud.

You're trying to make a reasonable CR NPC monster, correct? So, the question isn't "Why can't I do what I want?", becuase the answer to such a question is the (quite obvious): "But you can do what you want. Go for it! You are the DM, after all..."

If you think a Incubus Sor 15 is an appropriate CR 16, then go ahead and do that. (Hint: It isn't in most games.)

Balancing the CR of a critter is a tricky business. But as all of us have tried to point out, with the right choices, there are some wicked-powerful combos out there, easily up to the challenge tastes of your game. For an Incubus, you'll want to be looking for class abilities that depend on that amazing Cha score it's likely to have.

As it is, when a Incubus is no longer effective because of party level, giving him 5 levels of Sorcerer isn't going to make ANY diffrence. Bringing level 2 spells to a fight when level 8 spells are flying is useless. Even giving him 10 levels of sorcerer so he can use a single level 5 spell is better, but still borken.

That's a pretty strong assertion. Are you sure?

 

[Fun Elemental!]

The thing is, all monster classes are bad comboes with casters, while some are okay for fighter and rogue types. All you need is a str or dex high enough. As written, the most magical inherent caster species, beings that can instinctively cast spells practically at birth, are supremely inferior magicians in comparison to a human. A pixie has a half dozen potent spells naturally but it's a pitiful mage and an awesome rogue.

Exactly what I'm talking about. I'm glad at least one person can see my point.


Just about 100% of the time, it is NEVER worth giving ANY levels of spell caster to ANY monster EVER. The only time giving spell caster levels to a monster is if your not trying to get 'spell caster' levels, but cheesy combat tricks like true strike, mage armor, or protection from X.

That isn't a caster, that is a melee monster which is abusing low level magic spells.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Exactly what I'm talking about. I'm glad at least one person can see my point.


Just about 100% of the time, it is NEVER worth giving ANY levels of spell caster to ANY monster EVER. The only time giving spell caster levels to a monster is if your not trying to get 'spell caster' levels, but cheesy combat tricks like true strike, mage armor, or protection from X.

That isn't a caster, that is a melee monster which is abusing low level magic spells.

How is this any different than trying to give 2 Sorcerer levels to a level 10 Wizard or level 10 Druid? Dipping out of spellcasting never makes a strong spellcaster. Dude, you don't have a problem with Savage Species. You have a problem with the 3e multiclassing system.

 

[RigaMortus2]

As it is, when a Incubus is no longer effective because of party level, giving him 5 levels of Sorcerer isn't going to make ANY diffrence. Bringing level 2 spells to a fight when level 8 spells are flying is useless.

Then you are obviously picking the wrong low level spells.

 

[IcyCool]

The thing is, all monster classes are bad comboes with casters, while some are okay for fighter and rogue types. All you need is a str or dex high enough. As written, the most magical inherent caster species, beings that can instinctively cast spells practically at birth, are supremely inferior magicians in comparison to a human. A pixie has a half dozen potent spells naturally but it's a pitiful mage and an awesome rogue.

Not at all. A Pixie Sorcerer 10 is way better than a Human Sorcerer 10.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Exactly what I'm talking about. I'm glad at least one person can see my point.


Just about 100% of the time, it is NEVER worth giving ANY levels of spell caster to ANY monster EVER. The only time giving spell caster levels to a monster is if your not trying to get 'spell caster' levels, but cheesy combat tricks like true strike, mage armor, or protection from X.

That isn't a caster, that is a melee monster which is abusing low level magic spells.

That is when you bust out the "normally low level, low CR" creatures like kobolds, and pump them up with levels in Sorcerer. Your party of 16th level characters will be surprised when the Kobold Sorcerer of 16th level is busting the high level spells out.

If you want a monster with caster levels, you need to use low Hit Die monsters and add caster levels to them.

 

[IcyCool]

If you want a monster with caster levels, you need to use low Hit Die monsters and add caster levels to them.

Or choose a monster that "cast spells as if they were a sorcerer x". Which, coincidentally, increase their casting ability by adding sorcerer levels.

 

[Klaus]

Or choose a monster that "cast spells as if they were a sorcerer x". Which, coincidentally, increase their casting ability by adding sorcerer levels.

Like Rakshasa + Sorcerer or Nymph + Druid.