D&D 4E Is there a "Cliffs Notes" summary of the entire 4E experience?

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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Perhaps. If 4E had been a "clean up and fix" edition of 3rd - in many of the ways 2nd was for 1st I don't think it would have happened - but for any system that took any great departure (as 3rd was from 2nd) I agree with you. And it truly was a perfect storm of lots of non content related things that gave rise to Pathfinder.

Despite my love of 4e as is, I do think 4e would have been more successful if it had consolidated a lot of the 3.X tech developed from 2005-2007 into a revised edition. Combining Bo9S martial types into a unified "spells" table with casters, for example. Reserve feats and/or warlock invocations to allow at-will magic use. Greater development of the "alternative class levels", which presaged Pathfinder's archetypes. Combine that with judicious pruning and alteration of the spell lists, and I think you solve about 75% of the issues that people who were weary of 3.X had.
 

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Despite my love of 4e as is, I do think 4e would have been more successful if it had consolidated a lot of the 3.X tech developed from 2005-2007 into a revised edition. Combining Bo9S martial types into a unified "spells" table with casters, for example. Reserve feats and/or warlock invocations to allow at-will magic use. Greater development of the "alternative class levels", which presaged Pathfinder's archetypes. Combine that with judicious pruning and alteration of the spell lists, and I think you solve about 75% of the issues that people who were weary of 3.X had.

Yeah. I do some of that in my PF game.
I allow a free Reserve feat to any caster, Have a "ritual" feat that allows any character to cast spells with 10 minute to 1 hour casting time for the cost of a scroll, and use Residuum as an easy light way to carry money and use in magic items.

Personally my biggest issues with 4E in play had to do with situation and playstyle.

I tend to play solo - our group plays HERO, so my D&D/PF play is solo with me and the wife. 3.x/PF with Gestalt and multi-classing (and now the Mythic rules with Pathfinder) make playing a solo character in a published module pretty easy. 4E is not really that friendly to solo play in published modules.

The other is a quirk in my playstyle - I prefer the only way I can influence a game world is through the actions of my character. I don't even want to make a tactical decision in combat that isn't from the characters POV, and ever time I roll dice it has a direct correlation with something the character is doing. Same with spells and such - if the character has a limited resource, I need some sort of internal story based reason that the character chooses to use that resource.So if something once or twice a day, the character has to be the one choosing when to use it, and have flavor/story reasons why he can't do it again. Daily Martial I couldn't wrap my head around* (whereas Bo9S style stuff I didn't have an issue with). Fate points/Hero Points/Drama points drive me up a wall too. :D

The game itself was very well made, and had ideas I take for my PF game. Just like I stole the escalation die from 13th Age, and will likely steal bits from 5th ed too.

* Yes I am one of "those people"
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
The crux of the issue is, this part doesn't hold up.

There were a lot of people with very real and legitimate reasons to dislike 4E.
Just because YOU don't experience them doesn't mean they are made up.
It's not a matter of complaining about what you experience. Remember, the first salvos of the edition war were fired by h4ters like the Alexandrian before they'd had a chance to play the game, let alone figure out that the various ways we were accustomed to compensating for D&D's perennial issues were no longer all required.

There were legitimate criticism of 4e early on. Skill Challenges, for instance, were demonstrably messed up, there were some clearly broken power combos, that sort of thing.

They weren't really what the h4ters latched onto, though, because they kept getting fixed in updates.

The more typical h4ter rationalization - dissociative mechanics, fighters casting spells, and so forth - were either outright lies, or selectively-defined straw men that didn't hold up to scrutiny. They might ultimately be about something real - class balance, for instance (4e had it) - but they weren't legitimate.


I hear people make all kinds of complaints about 3E that NEVER happen at my table. This doesn't mean they don't happen for those people.
Sure. But, you can at least see /how/ they could happen, and how they might be difficult to compensate for. LFQW, for instance, was a real thing, mathematically demonstrable, and, while may 3e fans claimed not to notice it (or actively liked it), they couldn't argue that it was just being made up - the numbers those complaining cited were real, taken straight from the books, and they added up.

The few complaints of that nature about 4e (Skill Challenges, assumed attack and non-AC defense progression at Paragon & Epic, Elites/Solos and general 'monster math') were refined and fixed.

And, of course, there's speed of combat. 4e combats are more detailed, tend to involve more enemies, and give every player equal agency in contributing to the combat - meaning that relatively few players get virtually skipped over because their character has nothing useful to do or no meaningful choices to make or resolve. To some players that seems slow because, while you're getting more for the time you invest, it is kinda a large single block of time. To others, it seems slow because they're used to dominating play, and letting everyone else have equal time drags as they wait for their turn to come back around. And, to still others, the impression the combat is slow is simply because it's actually being resolved over several rounds, instead of in a surprise segment.

The remaining complaints - dissociative mechanics, fighters casting spells, and so forth - are, indeed, not at all legitimate or real. They may have a real agenda other than just reactionary nerdrage at the bottom of them - like balance, caster primacy, or realism - but the complaints themselves aren't about real things, just stalking horses for issues that the h4ter knows won't be taken seriously if expressed honestly.

What part of the "perfect storm" explains why anyone would play a game they don't like if this storm had not happened?
Well, it has happened with every other edition of D&D. They have fairly long runs, and new material for old editions was not generally forthcoming (due to little things like trademarks and copyright law), so even serious hold-outs would have little choice but to buy material for the old game and adapt it, and might well find it easier to just start playing the new one, instead. Especially as the new game has generally been better than the old, with each rev-roll, anyway.
 

There are a _lot_ of things they could have done better about the launch of 4e. I can't comprehend some of the decisions, like making it impossible for 3rd party publishers, burning Paizo on supporting the edition _or even seeing it_. The fact that Paizo and WotC shared gaming groups, worked hand in hand on D&D for years, and yet Paizo saw the system the same time I did? Inconceivable.

Pretty sure that whole mess were the suits and lawyers. They saw other companies releasing pocket sized players handbook from the text in the SRD and others releasing competing games based on the system. And they freaked.

I seem to remember that part of the reason for the OGL was Dancy's reaction to all the stuff at TSR when WotC bought them, and never wanted a company to go out of business/sit on IP again on D&D - and made a way to keep D&D available for free, forever. They sold the suits on Network Externalities and the idea of it being used for support material. When the suits saw competing, instead of supporting, product they tried to re-bottle the genie.

When the devs kept having to push back announcements about the GSL and what it was going to be, I sensed serious frustration with the process there.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Perhaps. If 4E had been a "clean up and fix" edition of 3rd - in many of the ways 2nd was for 1st I don't think it would have happened - but for any system that took any great departure (as 3rd was from 2nd) I agree with you. And it truly was a perfect storm of lots of non content related things that gave rise to Pathfinder.
Agreed. A 3.x 'clean up' /could not/ have been used as a stalking horse for the GSL the way 4e was, because it would have had too much in common with d20 in terminology and structure. 3pps could have gone ahead producing content for D&D using the OGL, and no matter how late, weird or restrictive, the GSL wouldn't have mattered. So, that would have taken a lot of wind out of the perfect storm, right there.

There would still have been the standard-issue nerdrage about a 'cash grab' and 'making' us re-buy all the same books again and whatnot. And, if the revenue goals and DDI disasters had still happened, the game would still have 'failed' in that regard by 2010 and seen loss of resources and slowing releases - but 3pps could've made up the difference.

And, perhaps that could have set the stage for some real innovation...
 

reiella

Explorer
Pretty sure that whole mess were the suits and lawyers. They saw other companies releasing pocket sized players handbook from the text in the SRD and others releasing competing games based on the system. And they freaked.

I seem to remember that part of the reason for the OGL was Dancy's reaction to all the stuff at TSR when WotC bought them, and never wanted a company to go out of business/sit on IP again on D&D - and made a way to keep D&D available for free, forever. They sold the suits on Network Externalities and the idea of it being used for support material. When the suits saw competing, instead of supporting, product they tried to re-bottle the genie.

When the devs kept having to push back announcements about the GSL and what it was going to be, I sensed serious frustration with the process there.

One thing to note, instead of the competition aspect being problematic, it was the lack of control over material that really lead to the change with GSL. BOEF was problematic.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I hope I haven't come off as dumping on the OGL. The OGL was a great idea, it's the GSL that was foolish. 5e should go ahead and publish under the OGL, updating the SRD the same way 3.5 did.

It's better to have de-facto partners (even if the fringes put out weird stuff) than not.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
<snip>


The remaining complaints - dissociative mechanics, fighters casting spells, and so forth - are, indeed, not at all legitimate or real. They may have a real agenda other than just reactionary nerdrage at the bottom of them - like balance, caster primacy, or realism - but the complaints themselves aren't about real things, just stalking horses for issues that the h4ter knows won't be taken seriously if expressed honestly.

You are incorrect. You do not get to inspect my rationale for legitimacy. You can point out areas where I am factually incorrect and in fact I appreciate when people do. The rest is subjective and I assure you, quite legitimate. The things I don't like in 4e as a player I don't like in a host of other games that use/rely on the same fundaments. I'll leave it at that.
 

One thing to note, instead of the competition aspect being problematic, it was the lack of control over material that really lead to the change with GSL. BOEF was problematic.

I remember that furor now. I thought the whole concept of BoEF was just stupid, so I sort of blocked it out of my memory.
 

pemerton

Legend
The example of skill challenge, for example, are pretty far from a story-now/fail-forward approach.
4e DMG p 72:

Is This a Challenge? It’s not a skill challenge every time you call for a skill check. When an obstacle takes only one roll to resolve, it’s not a challenge. One Diplomacy check to haggle with the merchant, one Athletics check to climb out of the pit trap, one Religion check to figure out whose sacred tome contains the parable—none of these constitutes a skill challenge.​

Page 74:

the characters’ success should have a significant impact on the story of the adventure. Additional rewards might include information, clues, and favors, as well as simply moving the adventure forward.

If the characters fail the challenge, the story still has to move forward, but in a different direction and possibly by a longer, more dangerous route.​

It's not quite Burning Wheel, but it's very different from anything in Gygax's DMG, or (as best I remember it) Monte Cook's.
 

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