D&D (2024) Is There A New Sheriff in Town?

[payn]

People exaggerate on the internet SHOCK!

4e was never particularly popular, but then 3e was already struggling to compete with video games. D&D started to rally after 2014 because of two factors: streamers introducing the game to a wider audience, and switching to much simpler, and therefore more widely accessible ruleset. There was a mistaken belief that "more complicated equals better" but that had started right back in AD&D, and peaked at 3e.

Yeap.

Pathfinder wasn't "big", it's just that D&D had become small. It's comparable to games like Runequest and Traveller, which shared a significant part of the tabletop market in the early 80s (but were never "bigger"). There really wasn't much point in buying Pathfinder if you already owned 3e, yet people still feel the need to play something that is "current" rather than use the older stuff they like better and already own. It's like people want to give their money away!

Not really, and a pretty insulting take at that. I think making a "Pepsi" in the RPG space is pretty big. Im not saying bigger than D&D, but its notable. There were both good reasons mechanically and setting wise to buy Pathfinder. Golarion is quite possibly the most detailed setting in all RPGs. The monthly adventure paths offer a great value for folks who like new published adventures. The mechanics Paizo cooked up made 3E leagues better (although some of it was not good). Paizo earned a good reputation through making good products.

Point is, folks were not buying PF because it was "current", they bought it because it offered them good stuff that they liked; and still does today.

If Daggerheart can do the same, and provide a real alternative to D&D, that will be a thoroughly good thing. It doesn't have to be be bigger than D&D, or kill D&D, it just has to coexist, and demonstrate that oranges are not the only fruit.

Yes, this. Dont get stuck in the "anything that cant dethrone the king is a failure" mindset. If you want more players build a community.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Golarion is quite possibly the most detailed setting in all RPGs. The monthly adventure paths offer a great value for folks who like new published adventures.

This stuff worked fine in 3e rules though. No reason to buy new books if you already own them.

Golarion works fine with 5e for that matter.

 

[payn]

This stuff worked fine in 3e rules though. No reason to buy new books if you already own them.

Golarion works fine with 5e for that matter.

It wouldnt have been developed fully if it wasnt for Pathfinder. So, no it wouldnt have worked fine in 3E or 5E. It would have been much less defined and much less popular.

Also, Paizo developed on top of 3E quite a bit. I liked the things they added. 3E was not good enough as it was. I was not "buying the same book again".

 

[wicked cool]

Why doesn’t anyone ever say daggerheart will kill pathfinder or storm light etc etc. it’s always the wotc haters.
If we say d&d is number 1 and now daggerheart is the b all end all cats meow …. Why isn’t paizo shutting their doors. They are barely mentioned unless it’s hard core gamers

 

[Staffan]

It wouldnt have been developed fully if it wasnt for Pathfinder.

I'm not so sure. Remember that the core product of Paizo isn't the Pathfinder RPG (or at least, it wasn't back in the day). It was the Pathfinder adventure paths. When Paizo lost the license to make the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, they replaced them with their adventure path series, building upon what had worked well in Dungeon. They started releasing those in 2007 (a year before the release of 4e), the first four (IIRC) adventure paths were released for 3.5e, and they were making sourcebooks for 3.5e at the same time. Primarily those sourcebooks were supporting the adventure paths of the time – e.g. a Guide to Korvosa and a Harrow Deck released to coincide with the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP.

Initially they were keeping their options open regarding support for 4e – it wasn't until Jason Bulmahn playtested 4e at a con held by Wizards that they decided that they didn't want any part of that, and when the GSL was released that sealed the deal. The main reason they made the Pathfinder RPG was that they realized that making adventures and sourcebooks for a game that wasn't for sale anymore wasn't going to work out in the long run, so they made their own version with blackjack and hookers some minor changes* in the core rules.

Most RPG companies primarily make core rules, then sourcebooks to build on the core rules, and begrudgingly make adventures because common wisdom is that adventures don't sell. Paizo's one of the few companies who made an RPG to support their adventures.

* Core Pathfinder 1 is very close to core 3.5e. Pathfinder 1e with all the support material is quite different from 3.5e with all the support material.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I think it's more complex than that. I've listened to some podcasts which have touched on this. Brand loyalty (or sub-brand loyalty--you get bitter divides within brands like D&D or DC etc.)

When you invest in a brand (or a sub-brand) you don't just invest time and money, you also invest part of yourself. It is part of your identity. Maybe not an important part of your identity (well, for most people) but a part nevertheless. So it's not just about the brand being successful, it's about your investment being the right choice. The success of the brand doesn't just validate the brand, it validates you. And people get really hot and bothered about it. I'm as guilty of it as anybody else--I'll catch myself defending Apple when some Android user makes a comment about my phone, before I realise--does it really matter? To me? Is it important that this person likes my phone?

You see this with the way people strenuously argue about Android vs. Apple, Snyder DC vs. Gunn DC, and--of course--D&D editions. It's a curious psychological phenomena--people turn into unpaid brand ambassadors who evangelise a brand far more than even the brand's owners do, defending it fervently, and attacking all who might oppose it. Usually, while paying for the privilege. Brands, of course, don't condone this... but they don't exactly discourage it either. Nothing wrong with an army of free zealots on your side working hard to uphold your brand's honour!

Boy, the timing of this post and the one right above it Really sort of supports you point. Interesting coincidence.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Why doesn’t anyone ever say daggerheart will kill pathfinder or storm light etc etc. it’s always the wotc haters.
If we say d&d is number 1 and now daggerheart is the b all end all cats meow …. Why isn’t paizo shutting their doors. They are barely mentioned unless it’s hard core gamers

This, and the post I made earlier, hint at an important point. Daggerfall should see if it can be more popular than Shadowdark, let alone D&D.

 

[payn]

I'm not so sure. Remember that the core product of Paizo isn't the Pathfinder RPG (or at least, it wasn't back in the day). It was the Pathfinder adventure paths. When Paizo lost the license to make the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, they replaced them with their adventure path series, building upon what had worked well in Dungeon. They started releasing those in 2007 (a year before the release of 4e), the first four (IIRC) adventure paths were released for 3.5e, and they were making sourcebooks for 3.5e at the same time. Primarily those sourcebooks were supporting the adventure paths of the time – e.g. a Guide to Korvosa and a Harrow Deck released to coincide with the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP.

Initially they were keeping their options open regarding support for 4e – it wasn't until Jason Bulmahn playtested 4e at a con held by Wizards that they decided that they didn't want any part of that, and when the GSL was released that sealed the deal. The main reason they made the Pathfinder RPG was that they realized that making adventures and sourcebooks for a game that wasn't for sale anymore wasn't going to work out in the long run, so they made their own version with blackjack and hookers some minor changes* in the core rules.

Most RPG companies primarily make core rules, then sourcebooks to build on the core rules, and begrudgingly make adventures because common wisdom is that adventures don't sell. Paizo's one of the few companies who made an RPG to support their adventures.

* Core Pathfinder 1 is very close to core 3.5e. Pathfinder 1e with all the support material is quite different from 3.5e with all the support material.

Id argue the Pathfinder split raised Golarion and Paizo adventures to the next level. If they had moved to 4E, they'd still be a good third party option and folks definitely have opinions on third party options. In other words, limited market.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Unfortunately Level Up doesn’t have the exposure that Daggerheart does.

Daggerheart is differenter anyway.

A streamed Voidrunners game would be good though.

I would watch the heck out of that!

 

[Micah Sweet]

This, and the post I made earlier, hint at an important point. Daggerfall should see if it can be more popular than Shadowdark, let alone D&D.

I'm happy to let Shadowdark be more popular. Daggerheart needn't put itself out .