Is there a non-magic paladin or a paladin with Chr based spells?

[DM-Rocco]

At the risk of being browbeaten by hordes of wuxia/anime fans, Bo9S is not everyone's cup of tea. None of the groups I game with allow it in play. It's on the verboten list along with psionics, incarnum and invocations. Aside from the balance issues, which no Bo9S fan will ever admit even exist, there are two main factors:

1.) Complexity - at mid to higher-levels, d20 3.5 combat already slows to a snails pace, under core only rules. Throw in things like maneuvres and stances, the blowout gets even worse.

2.) Flavor - the kung-fu/wuxia tone of Bo9S really doesn't mesh that well with the Arthurian/Tolkien/Conanesque themes of "traditional" D&D. (Obviously, IMHO).

*So as not to derail this thread, please let my public stoning begin in a new or existing Bo9S topic.

I think after looking it over I agree. The BoNS I think is abusive, but that is just MPO.

 

[Kat']

I saw that too. I like the idea of playing a paladin, but in order to play a Prestige paladin you can't take paladin levels, so what do I do with myself for those first 5 levels?

I could redo the stats to something like this:

Str 14 (6 points)
Con 14 (6 points)
Dex 12 (4 points)
Int 10 (2 points)
Wis 14 (6 points)
Chr 14 (6 points)

but is really defeats my original idea and weakens the favored soul spells. I could do this:

Str 12 (4 points)
Con 14 (6 points)
Dex 10 (2 points)
Int 10 (2 points)
Wis 14 (6 points)
Chr 16 (10 points)

but this is bordering on very weak as far as Str goes. Good luck wearing plate armor. Although, hard to wear plate with a 14 Str.

So how 'bout Str 14 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 16? I mean, Dex is a dump stat for every Paladin, and that 12 Wis grants you access to your normal spells up until level 7, at which point yous should be able to afford a periapt of wis +2. Until level 14 you should buy a periapt +6 but that's hardly an issue.

 

[blargney the second]

1.) Complexity - at mid to higher-levels, d20 3.5 combat already slows to a snails pace, under core only rules. Throw in things like maneuvres and stances, the blowout gets even worse.

2.) Flavor - the kung-fu/wuxia tone of Bo9S really doesn't mesh that well with the Arthurian/Tolkien/Conanesque themes of "traditional" D&D. (Obviously, IMHO).

1.) 1 attack with +XdY damage and maybe a rider effect vs 3+ attacks. The former is way less complex - full attacks take forever to resolve.

2.) Everybody sees what they want to see in art. If you don't see Arthurian/Tolkien/Conan in Bo9S, I assure you it's no fault of the book's.
-blarg

 

[DM-Rocco]

1.) 1 attack with +XdY damage and maybe a rider effect vs 3+ attacks. The former is way less complex - full attacks take forever to resolve.

2.) Everybody sees what they want to see in art. If you don't see Arthurian/Tolkien/Conan in Bo9S, I assure you it's no fault of the book's.
-blarg

I won't speak for Thurebane but I personally think the BoNS has a lot of ways to abuse the game. It might be good in theory but like any new system there will be things that need adjustment. Personally I hope that D&D isn't heading this way but we will see. That, however, is a whole other thread.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Oh, I did find a paladin varient in Dragon #306 that substituites all abilities that use Chr for Wis instead which would give the same result in revearse, which is fine cause then I can pair it up with a cleric. You have to be a paladin of Rao however and I have no idea who that is.

 

[DM-Rocco]

The Paladin variant from Complete Champion would be perfect, IMO. It works great.

Dragon magazine #349 (p. 93) offers a bunch of fiendslaying options for Paladins, some of which are quite cool (again, IMO.)

And your first bunch of stats should be fine there. Though personally, I might go for Dex 12 and Str 15, if not more so.


edit --- 349, not 359.

Dang it, out of all the Dragon Magazines that is the one issue I can't seem to find. Do you think I could trouble you to take a peek inside and go a bit more indepth? :\

 

[Thurbane]

Oh, I did find a paladin varient in Dragon #306 that substituites all abilities that use Chr for Wis instead which would give the same result in revearse, which is fine cause then I can pair it up with a cleric. You have to be a paladin of Rao however and I have no idea who that is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rao_(Greyhawk)

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Greyhawk/FtAPowers.rtf

Rao

Rao is the serene, detached god of reason, intellect, and peace. The Power does not act on the Prime Material directly, but he is known to have created several powerful magical artifacts which are highly potent against evil (notably the Crook of Rao), possibly with the aid of Boccob.

Rao is always depicted as a dark-skinned, white-haired old man with bright, dark brown eyes and long, slender hands; he is smiling and serene. Rao's faith is one that does not appeal much to common folk; he has always had more followers among rulers, diplomats, sages, scholars, and philosophers. Clearly, his church is not exactly overpopulated at present. Those who seek to find powerful magic to aid the cause of good make him valuable offerings and meditate on Rao's sacred texts. Services to Rao involve discussions of theology and group meditations.

Rao's Priests

Rao's priests are mediators, and negotiators -- wise and quiet people. Most are male. Rao's High Patriarch in Greyhawk was instrumental in the diplomacy that ended the wars.

The priesthood is very studious, but one motto is "there is a time to think, and more rarely to act; but in that time, action is wisdom." These priests are not wholly pacifistic!

Requirements: AB Wis 16, Cha 13; AL LG; WP flail, mace, morningstar, staff, staff-sling; AR none, or magical chain; RA white robes; SP Astral, Charm, Divination, Guardian, Healing, Law, Necromantic*, Numbers*, Protection*, Thought, Wards*; SPL none; PW 1) friends (W1), 4) +2 to all saving throws versus illusions and mind-affecting spells, 7) emotion (calm) (W4), 9) true seeing; TU turn at - 4 levels.

 

[Mistwell]

At the risk of being browbeaten by hordes of wuxia/anime fans, Bo9S is not everyone's cup of tea.

I'm not going to browbeat you as a wuxia/anime fan. In fact, I actively dislike both genres. I am going to brow beat you for that stereotype however. Book of 9 Swords is not anime or wuxia, unless you want it to be that. It is, in fact, the prototype for fourth edition fighter-types. I think it is a superior system to that used in standard 3.5 D&D. And I am really sick and tired of that stupid, thoughtless stereotype being thrown around by folks who don't like the Book of 9 Swords.

Look, it's OK in my book that it is not your cup of tea. It's not OK to paint that thing you don't like as a genre of Japanese animation or Chinese martial arts novels. Sure, wuxia and anime has things that are similar to some things in that book. However, D&D has things that are similar to some things in that book, and pretty much ANY fantasy genre book or TV show or movie has things that are similar to some things in that book. Book of 9 Swords has somehow been painted as "flavored with Wuxia and Anime" when in reality it's not any more flavored by that than any other fantasy genre. All it is, is a system that gives fighter-types per-encounter one-shot special abilities like "attack two targets in one blow" or "Do more damage at the expense of an AC reduction this round" and things like that.

None of the groups I game with allow it in play.

He said he was looking for a WOTC book, even a Dragon magazine class was OK. So the fact that it is not OK in your game is pretty irrelevant given what this poster is looking for.

It's on the verboten list along with psionics, incarnum and invocations. Aside from the balance issues, which no Bo9S fan will ever admit even exist, there are two main factors:

1.) Complexity - at mid to higher-levels, d20 3.5 combat already slows to a snails pace, under core only rules. Throw in things like maneuvres and stances, the blowout gets even worse.

It gets easier I find. Most maneuvers require a standard action instead of a full attack, which gets rid of additional attacks from a full attack, which is where a lot of complexity from high levels comes from. I find the complexity is lessened, not increased. Which is again one of the reasons they are going with that system for 4e. You move, you attack with a special ability, and your turn is done.

2.) Flavor - the kung-fu/wuxia tone of Bo9S really doesn't mesh that well with the Arthurian/Tolkien/Conanesque themes of "traditional" D&D. (Obviously, IMHO).

That is really not the flavor of the book. It's in a few things, but the majority isn't that. I have no problem at all getting rid of any reference to any vaguely eastern-philosophy descriptions. You wouldn't either I suspect, if you tried.

*So as not to derail this thread, please let my public stoning begin in a new or existing Bo9S topic.

Oh heck no. You crap this thread and then expect nobody to respond in this thread? How about maybe you start another thread to rant about it instead of telling some guy who says he is open to alternative Paladins from WOTC that he shouldn't even consider a suggestion because it's not your cup of tea?

 

[Mistwell]

I think after looking it over I agree. The BoNS I think is abusive, but that is just MPO.

If you read threads from people who have actually used it, most folks agree it's not abusive at all. It's mostly folks who just read it and don't consider all the ramifications (which is hard to do until you play it) that conclude it's overpowered. There are a LOT of playing reports about the book, and I suggest you at least read those before coming to a conclusion.

 

[Mistwell]

I won't speak for Thurebane but I personally think the BoNS has a lot of ways to abuse the game. It might be good in theory but like any new system there will be things that need adjustment. Personally I hope that D&D isn't heading this way but we will see. That, however, is a whole other thread.

See I find that funny. You call it "might be good in theory" without trying it out, when people who have tried it out in practice tell you it's worth checking out.

D&D is headed this way, and they have already said it is. It was one of the most popular books they put out, and for good reason. It really is a superior system. Not an overpowered system, just a much better and more interesting one.

Check it out...not on paper, but in a game. Or at least read reviews from people who actually used it in a game.